Minnesota Outdoorsman
Minnesota - Specific Areas => Ely- BWCA- Gunflint Trail => Topic started by: Lee Borgersen on December 12/08/17, 12:28:54 PM
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:reporter; BWCA 2018 Permits and Lottery :scratch:
:coffee: .....
It is time to start planning those 2018 trips. Here is some updates and basic information to get you started. And start bugging your friends and family to start thinking about a trip now as we are less then 2 months away from permit booking.
:popcorn: ...
- A BWCA permit reservation is required for each group wishing to enter and camp overnight between May 1st through September 30th 2018. Only one permit is required per group. Permits are for entering on a specific day and entry point.
- Permits are also required for entry into the Quetico and Woodland Caribou. ;)
- Mark your Calendars - BWCA reservations for all entry points can be made on a first-come, first-served basis beginning January 31, 2018 at 9:00 a.m. CST.
- Permits can be booked through outfitters or recreation.gov. You can start planning with outfitters now so that they can work with you on routes/canoes/gear and book the permit for you when they open. Please see the list of outfitters in our menu above.
- Lottery - There is a small set of permits :angry2: primary focused on motor use :mad1: which are distributed through a lottery before all permits are opened for booking on Jan 31st.
- Lottery information:
The BWCAW 2018 lottery application period begins December 20, 2017 at 9:00 a.m. CST through January 17, 2018, 9:00 p.m. CST. The lottery is for the following entry points and dates: Fall Lake entry points D (Fall Lake, Newton Lake, Pipestone and Beyond) and 24 (Fall Lake); Moose Lake entry points F (Moose Lake to Newfound and Sucker Lakes), G (Moose Lake to Prairie Portage to Basswood Lake) and 25 (Moose Lake) for dates between May 1, 2018 and September 30, 2018. Lottery results will be available on January 24, 2018.
There is a 10 dollar fee to enter the lottery and it is non-refundable even if you don’t win the lottery :banghead: which is a change from last year. :angry2:
Note for 2019! - The lottery system is going to be eliminated after the 2018 season is over. :scratch: :taz: :scratch:
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:angry2: UPDATE! :angry2:
Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness permit reservation site opens,
:bonk: then shuts down! :angry2:
Jan 30, 2019 at 6:38 p.m.
:bonk: ......
The new national reservation system for Boundary Waters permits opened Wednesday, Jan. 30, and then promptly crashed, with the U.S. Forest Service saying they will set a new date for permits to become available.
Reservations for Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness permits were moved for the 2019 season to the recreation.gov site, the same site used for reservations at national parks across the country.
“Due to technical difficulties, reservations for Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness are closed. We are diligently working to correct the problem. Please check back for status updates,” a message on the site said.
Some local businesses around the federal wilderness that depend on permits for their customers warned the Forest Service that the rush of applications for the permits, now all awarded on a first-come, first-served basis, would overwhelm the site. That appears to be what happened.
The Forest Service and private contractor in charge of the site discovered a problem with how the national system servers were distributing traffic to the site, which resulted in the inability of many visitors to make reservations. Several people were successful in making reservations for permits while others could not access the system at all. Once the Forest Service became aware of the situation, the decision was made to stop the sale of BWCAW permits.
“Superior National Forest staff worked closely with the contractor over the past year, including time during the recent government furlough, to ensure the system was ready and provided everything necessary to assure success,” Superior National Forest officials said in a statement Wednesday afternoon, adding that the private contractor and Forest Service “are diagnosing the exact cause of the technical difficulties, carefully identifying how to fix the problems, and developing a detailed strategy to reopen the permit process in the near future. As soon as possible, we will identify a new date for BWCAW quota permits to become available for reservation, but only after we feel confident the malfunction experienced today has been corrected.”
More than 100,000 people visit the BWCAW between May 1 and Sept. 30 each year, the period during which permits are limited. The Forest Service this year eliminated a lottery system used to award about 42,000 of those permits in past years.
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TOLD YA it was gonna crash with a rush to get 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :moon: :bonk:
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TOLD YA it was gonna crash with a rush to get 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :moon: :bonk:
maybe da govmet can subcontract ya out to fix all da problems!!!!!
which reminds me i still havent seen my drivers license yet!!!!!!!!! :angry2: :angry2: :taz: :taz: :taz: :banghead: :banghead: training-087 training-087
while your fixing things reb, can you make sure crawler poachin isnt illegal!!!!!!!!!! :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
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No DL yet???! WTH?!?! GET ON 'EM!!!!!! :angry2:
As for the crawler thing, I believe pulling on yer worm in public is a SEKS crime.... :police:
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TOLD YA it was gonna crash with a rush to get 'em!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :moon: :bonk:
All da resort owners/outfitters Had told da forest service in advance dat dis was gunna happen. It seems dat anything ta discourage folks from commin ta da BWCA fits da agenda of da enviros.
Not only dat but just found out from da resorts dat some rules dat existed in da past were also changed wit-out tellin da resorts. Example: in da past one person was designated as group leader and be able ta sign da permits of three others so three other boats dat could fish da BWCA dat day. We were told now to list any others names that would go on yer permit in their boats.
Now! the resort owners just found out (after da fact ) dat those names would subtract from yer permit allotment total and be split up off of yer permit use.
I'm glad I found that out because that would cut out my ability ta cross da portage to da BWCA. Sounds like some behind da scenes trickery :tut:
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Jeez, what a friggin' mess..... :doah:
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Permit Mess :doah:
Here's a radio interview by my friend Nancy Mc Ready the president of the CWCS (conservationists with common sense) that I am an member of..... :happy1:
Audio interview....
https://www.wtip.org/bwca-permit-reservation-system-crashes-opening-day
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:reporter; ...by Nick Wognum -
2/2/19
:coffee: ...
A massive failure of the U.S. Forest Service’s online reservation system Wednesday morning left potential users with complete frustration and no permits for the upcoming season.
The computer system by Recreation.gov crashed immediately after permits became available at 9 a.m. The Forest Service decided to not have a lottery for motor use permits on lakes like Basswood which are in high demand.
“This is going to be devastating to individuals and resort owners,” said Nancy McReady of Conservationists With Common Sense. “We asked where the public input was at the public meeting. We told them there was going to be problems. This is a major cluster you know what.”
:drillsergeant: .....
The Forest Service announced shortly after 10 a.m. that the whole system was being shutdown.
“We will reverse all internal and external transactions of course for fairness and close BWCAW reservations until further notice,” said Ann Schwaller, Natural Resources Program Manager at the Superior Forest Supervisor’s Office in Duluth.
“Again, the Forest has done everything asked of us the last 14 months. We don’t know why this happened, :confused: but we will keep you updated as we are updated. All previous tests the last few months pointed to success for today.
“We are sick :puke: over it as well. A ton of work has gone into this; including working through furlough. We’ve done all we can to prepare and follow national direction,” said Schwaller.
The response in Ely was immediate. While people didn’t directly blame the local Kawishiwi District office, reports were over 300 people called in the first hour. :doah:
“The USFS BWCA permit system crashed and they are shutting it down because they can’t issue BWCA permits for this summer at this point. Since they tossed the lottery for day-use motor permits, there was such a rush it appears, their computers broke,” said Joe Baltich of Northwind Lodge in an online post.
“If you were planning on taking a motor trip to Basswood this summer, you probably won’t be going with a proper permit. I’m sure the Friends of the Boundary Waters :mad1: are cheering right about now,” said Baltich.
“This was doomed to fail from the start and many people tried to tell them that,” said Greg Mosher of Ely.
Dave Merhar of Ely said the response from the Forest Service was unacceptable. :tut:
“That’s the worst type of excuse you could offer. They obviously did not do all they could have including listening to our local Ranger Station and local organizations trying to explain to them a better way to do it. Ultimately the parties who are responsible should be severely reprimanded and removed from a position of responsibility.” :angry2:
Merhar pointed out there were Ely business owners who traveled to Minneapolis in hopes of being able to get a better internet connection in order to get permits. This has created a haves and have nots situation.
McReady hopes this will cause people to come together to show their displeasure :angry2: for this and other actions by the Forest Service.
“Maybe this will strike up the bass and we will fight training-087 this in court. Everybody has been too complacent for too long. Maybe this is just what we needed, a big failure of the Forest Service screwing up on us,” said McReady.
Part of the problem may be related to a court decision that should have put more permits back in the system. CWCS was involved in a lawsuit over the Chain of Lakes issue where home and resort owners on Moose Lake had permanent permits to access the BWCA by motor boat.
A judge ordered the Forest Service to determine how many permits that would have been and put that amount back into the system. The Forest Service claimed the files had been lost :confused: and never accounted for the additional usage, much to the delight of groups like da :bs: Friends of the Boundary Waters who fought against restoring motorboat usage to historic levels.
“It’s just like when they ignored the Chain of Lakes situation they were mandated to fix,” said McReady. “They probably won’t do anything about this either.”
Geography may have played a role in the SNAFU on Wednesday. People in Ely struggled to even get the website to show them how many permits were available.
“I’m assuming because we have a poor internet connection we couldn’t get as far as other people,” said Newt Nickerson of Ely. “I talked to someone in Arizona who got eight permits and had no problem getting them. :doah: When I went to the Forest Service office in Ely I was told that’s nothing, someone in Ohio got 10.” :doah:
Nickerson was left not knowing what would happen but he said there is only one logical solution.
“At this point it should be a lottery. There’s no other way it can be fair,” said Nickerson.
For BWCA user Bob Jalonen, he decided to steer away from the online route and called the reservation system on the phone at 9:02 a.m.
“All of my circle of buddies were applying online and none could get on via computer. I got on the phone and got in the queue where I was told it’ll be about 34 minutes. I got on at 50 minutes and talked to a human voice,” said Jalonen.
“She took down all of my information for a motor permit for Fall Lake and beyond. Then she told me she was going to put me on hold to enter it all into the computer. I thought she was doing that while we were talking. She came back on said, ‘Sorry!’” :banghead:
For McReady, there may be only one remedy.
“This is a major screw up by the Forest Service. One that CWCS may just have to get people’s support and sue them,” said McReady. :angry2:
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:banghead:
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Copied right off the webpage!!!
There's the problem!!! Try to get more than 73 visitors a year!!! :bonk: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
MN tourism agency looks to launch new campaign
11:13 am
February 4, 2019
MINNESOTA NEWS, TOP STORIES
ROCHESTER, Minn. (KTTC) – According to Minnesota state’s tourism agency, Explore Minnesota, tourism is a $15 billion industry in this state.
Explore Tourism Agency is launching a new marketing campaign Monday.
The group will welcome Governor Tim Walz to their annual conference in St. Paul.
Minnesota welcomes over 73 visitors each year.
Tourism stakeholders argued that everyone would benefit to see that number increase, pumping more fuel into the state’s economy.
State numbers show leisure and hospitality generates 18% of Minnesota’s sales taxes revenues.
https://kttc.com/news/minnesota-news/2019/02/04/mn-tourism-agency-looks-to-launch-new-campaign/
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Well, it is a true fact. We do welcome OVER 73 visitors a year. Hopefully well over that.
But if it was only 73, that would mean $205 million per visitor. A guy should be able to have a pretty good time for $205M - even here. Just sayin...
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Would love to win that. Wouldn't be many lines to battle neither.
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Barry, I think ya should do a tourism commercial for the state. Show a clip of you chasing yer horses, while the words "Where the wild horses roam" crawl across the screen... :rotflmao:
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:reporter; Stauber to Host Forum on the Failure :party1: of the Boundary Waters Canoe Area Reservation Permitting System.
:popcorn: ...
Congressman Pete Stauber (MN-08) will host a forum this weekend to give stakeholders the opportunity to express their concerns regarding the failure of recreation.gov and the subsequent inability :banghead: to book permits for the Boundary Waters Canoe Area (BWCA).
“The BWCA reservation system failure has already had a massive impact on business owners and families across Minnesota’s Eighth Congressional District and beyond,” said Stauber. :taz: “Since the website crashed last Wednesday morning, my office has heard from countless outdoor enthusiasts along with outfitters who are concerned with their ability to provide timely customer service and the harmful impact this crash could have on Northern Minnesota’s local economy. This forum will be a useful platform to express any concerns :angry2: pertaining to the failures of recreation.gov.”
WHAT: Forum for stakeholders to discuss concerns regarding the failure :thumbs: of the BWCA Reservation System.
WHERE: Grand Ely Lodge, 400 N. Pioneer Rd, Ely, MN 55731
WHEN: Saturday, February 9, 2019 from 10:00-11:00 AM CT
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:drillsergeant: USFS set to reopen BWCAW permit system :doah:
Update!
Rep. Pete Stauber hosts listening session in Ely
February 16, 2019
Well! Here We G0 Again! :crazy:
:angry2: ......
ELY— Minnesota’s Eighth District Congressman, Rep. Pete Stauber, hosted a forum at the Grand Ely Lodge on Saturday to give stakeholders the opportunity to express their concerns regarding the recent failure of the federal permit reservations system for the Boundary Waters. The Forest Service opted to suspend the system on Jan. 30, barely an hour after it went live for the season, when it failed to function as designed.
The U.S. Forest Service anticipates reopening the reservations system for Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness quota permits on Wednesday, Feb. 27.
More than 100 people attended the mostly-civil discussion on Saturday. A few made wild accusations, while others scolded Forest Service officials and complained they knew the new permit system was doomed to failure. Other stakeholders offered solutions to make for a smooth transition to a new way of doing things.
“We deeply regret the difficulty this has caused, and I want to thank the members of the community who are working with us to make this transition to an online reservation system successful,” said Superior National Forest Supervisor Connie Cummins. “Our goal is to ensure the reservation system provides a fair and open means for the public to visit the Boundary Waters and support the local businesses that depend on this special place.”
The BWCAW is one of more than 3,500 facilities across the country that utilizes Recreation.gov to manage their permit reservation processes. Within the national reservation system, customers can simultaneously apply for and secure a reservation for a permit.
“The BWCA reservation system failure has already had a massive impact on business owners and families across Minnesota’s Eighth Congressional District and beyond,” Stauber said. “Since the website crashed, my office heard from countless outdoor enthusiasts along with outfitters who are concerned with their ability to provide timely customer service and the harmful impact this crash could have on Northern Minnesota’s local economy.”
When asked what he hoped to accomplish at the hour-long listening session, Stauber replied, “The BWCA is a crown jewel not only in the state of Minnesota but this entire nation and internationally as well, so we have to get it right. We have outfitters in need in Minnesota. That’s their livelihood. Many here feel like the Forest Service was not listening to them. I think the Forest Service representatives heard that loud and clear.”
The online system, which has been in existence for about a decade, was expanded this year to include permits for motor use on certain high-demand lakes. Those permits had previously been allotted through a lottery, but Forest Service spokesperson Kris Reichenbach said agency staff felt the lottery was no longer necessary since those seeking reservations can now see permit availability instantly with the online program.
A panel of speakers who joined Stauber in the discussion included several outfitters: John Fredrickson, Ginny Nelson, Jason Zabokrtsky, and Bob LaTourell.
Ely Mayor Chuck Novak, Ely Chamber of Commerce director Eva Sebesta, Superior National Forest Supervisor Connie Cummins, and Malony Glossa, a deputy forester for the eastern region, were also part of the panel.
Local BWCA fishing guide Ross Petersen said the new system that operates on a first-come, first-served premise is discriminatory to poor and rural people. “If you don’t have high-speed Internet, and this was very clear during this last fiasco, you are not going to have the same access to permits as the people in the metro areas and the people who have access to high-speed Internet.”
He also complained that the Forest Service did not take any input from local stakeholders “until the new system couldn’t be stopped.”
Dan Waters, owner of Ely’s Canadian Waters, Inc., who claimed he was the oldest outfitter in the building, said he doesn’t expect anything to change. “For 55 years, there has been very little that the Forest Service has done that has come from suggestions of outfitters and cooperators, and I don’t look for that happening this time. You are looking for a quick answer again and it’s probably going to be an abortion of a fix.”
He asked for the Forest Service to listen to the people who depend on the BWCA for their livelihood. “I wouldn’t have your job for a million bucks,” Waters said.
Nancy McReady, president of Conservationists with Common Sense, repeated her request to have Ely considered as a location for a call center for the Forest Service permit reservation system. “We have some pretty good workers here that have a good record and we could really use some good jobs here,” she said. “There’s gotta be some way to address the issue rather than taking away the lottery.”
Many other citizens expressed their distrust of the Forest Service and believed the lottery system should return.
Former St. Louis County Commissioner Mike Forsman said he has no faith that the Internet-based reservation system will be successful.
He also addressed that with the lottery system, at least 38 percent of those who obtained permits didn’t show up to use their permits on the specified date and entry point. “That 38 percent purposely don’t show up,” he said. “This comes from the environmental community that typically have the permits and they’re trying to keep people out of the Boundary Waters. They get those motor permits and they don’t show up. They don’t want motors in the Boundary Waters.”
He said the issue won’t change with the Internet permit reservation system. “I’ll guarantee that you’ll have another 38 percent that don’t show up because they are bought by the environmental community that has more money that anybody in this room,” Forsman said. “They can buy as many permits as they want and they don’t have to worry about that poor person whose dad or grandpa used to fish on Basswood Lake, or Moose Lake or the Chain of Lakes.”
Stauber said he’s concerned about the economic impact the BWCA has on the Ely community. “The shutdown of the BWCA online permit system has economically impacted local businesses who rely on the hundreds and thousands of tourists who come out every year to enjoy the Boundary Waters,” he said.
About 150,000 tourists enjoy the Boundary Waters annually which brings in $57 million in revenue according to one recent study.
“Those of us who live here know that we had restaurants that closed last year and never reopened. “I don’t know how we got here but we have another MNLARS (state drivers license) system on our hands,” Novak said. “Where was the field testing? All I see is the reactive. Where is the proactive? Our economy today is based on tourism. We have a government that is supposed to work for us. Basswood Lake used to be our playground. Now we are restricted from going to our playground.”
The Forest Service’s Glossa tried to offer reassurance. “The entire community here in Ely, and our cooperators, are a big part of how we do business out here,” Glossa said. “We are going to have some beta testing with our cooperators to make sure we are addressing some of the issues that they see. We are working with a technical team that we’ve got to fix this.”
Forest Service officials were asked about a back-up plan if the re-launch of the reservation system does not work, and how a second possible government shutdown, that could happen on Friday, Feb. 15, will impact the process. Glossa said the new system won’t go live without new testing and training.
“We have the opportunity of prior-year funding to continue to support the system and we are committed to doing that. We will find a way to continue to support this system even if we are furloughed,” she said.
“Working to rebuild your trust is going to be a daily thing,” she said. “Our highest priority in the entire region is to make this go.”
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*CRASH*
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Yup what a joke!!
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*CRASH*
Dat's what happened at the DMV too.................................... when glenn tried to renew his. :scratch: :doah: :bonk: Mn must have some topnotch IT people workin for 'em. :confused: :thumbs:
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It was an out of state IT company they ultimately ended up firing. True. Figgers.
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i used to get my hunting and fishing licenses online till i found out they outsourced it outstate. came from Tennessee....yea i quit that!!!!!
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Iowa does the same thing, I read somewhere that most of the country goes through that same company. L & M, Fred's, lots of places just put your DNR ID # in a machine that's hooked up to a phone line & it prints your license. I wouldn't be surprised :scratch: if that goes through the out of state company too.
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Here, IT tech Apu is hooking up the new Minnesota ethernet cable...... :bonk:
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Did some checkin & it's Reserveamerica or Aspira is the parent software company. :fishing: & :fudd: online license renewal for all 50 states plus 2 provinces of Canada. Plus national & state park reservations, probably the ones that screwed up the BWCA one. :tut: :bonk:
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Appears the USFS deserves a chunk of the blame....
“The USFS BWCA permit system crashed and they are shutting it down because they can’t issue BWCA permits for this summer at this point. Since they tossed the lottery for day-use motor permits, there was such a rush it appears, their computers broke,” said Joe Baltich of Northwind Lodge in an online post.
“If you were planning on taking a motor trip to Basswood this summer, you probably won’t be going with a proper permit. I’m sure the Friends of the Boundary Waters are cheering right about now,” said Baltich.
“This was doomed to fail from the start and many people tried to tell them that,” said Greg Mosher of Ely.
Dave Merhar of Ely said the response from the Forest Service was unacceptable.
“That’s the worst type of excuse you could offer. They obviously did not do all they could have including listening to our local Ranger Station and local organizations trying to explain to them a better way to do it. Ultimately the parties who are responsible should be severely reprimanded and removed from a position of responsibility.”
Merhar pointed out there were Ely business owners who traveled to Minneapolis in hopes of being able to get a better internet connection in order to get permits. This has created a haves and have nots situation.
McReady hopes this will cause people to come together to show their displeasure for this and other actions by the Forest Service.
“Maybe this will strike up the bass and we will fight this in court. Everybody has been too complacent for too long. Maybe this is just what we needed, a big failure of the Forest Service screwing up on us,” said McReady.
Part of the problem may be related to a court decision that should have put more permits back in the system. CWCS was involved in a lawsuit over the Chain of Lakes issue where home and resort owners on Moose Lake had permanent permits to access the BWCA by motor boat.
A judge ordered the Forest Service to determine how many permits that would have been and put that amount back into the system. The Forest Service claimed the files had been lost and never accounted for the additional usage, much to the delight of groups like Friends of the Boundary Waters who fought against restoring motorboat usage to historic levels.
“It’s just like when they ignored the Chain of Lakes situation they were mandated to fix,” said McReady. “They probably won’t do anything about this either.”
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:bonk: Another case of the bureacrats knowin better than the public that actually uses the resource. :crazy: :pouty: :thumbs: :mad1:
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"Senator, have you actually camped in the BWCA?"
"No, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn"........ :rolleyes:
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:doah: BWCAW permit reservations pushed back :taz: again! :angry2:
By News Tribune on Feb 21, 2019 at 9:55 p.m.
:banghead: ....
The U.S. Forest Service announced Thursday it was pushing back the date for Boundary Water Canoe Area Wilderness visitors to apply for permits for the 2019 summer season.
The permits were supposed to be available online Jan. 30, but the system was quickly shut down after some applicants could not access the application page. The U.S. Forest Service decided to nullify all permits issued that day and start over from scratch.
The do-over date was set for Feb. 27 earlier this month, but is now being pushed to March 4. :moon:
"Between now and March 4 we will continue website testing and conducting training with cooperators to ensure the website meets Forest Service and public needs," :bonk: Superior National Forest supervisor Connie Cummins said in a news release.
Applications will open at www.recreation.gov on a first come, first served basis. More than 100,000 people visit the BWCAW between May 1 and Sept. 30 each year, the period during which permits are limited! :thumbs:
:tut: What A Joke! :banghead:
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Seen a short piece on this on the Duluth news last night. I didn't remember the exact date but pretty sure they said 9 am it'll open, hope they do more testing of the new version before then. :bonk:
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Told ya. Again.
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Seen a short piece on this on the Duluth news last night. I didn't remember the exact date but pretty sure they said 9 am it'll open, hope they do more testing of the new version before then. :bonk:
DULUTH, Minn. (AP) — The U.S. Forest Service plans to relaunch a balky new Boundary Waters Canoe Area reservation system on March 4.
The system crashed when it first went live Jan. 30 on the first day to apply for permits. Only a few people were able to reserve permits before the system failed. The Forest Service says the technical issues have now been addressed.
Outfitters use the system to obtain permits for customers for popular entry points and dates. They warned officials that the crush of first-come, first-served online reservations would overwhelm its capacity. The service previously awarded scare permits by lottery. Permits for an area where motors are allowed are especially coveted.
The Forest Service says it’s confident the system will work now.
People who reserved permits earlier will have to reapply.
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Submitted by The Ely Echo
:reporter; Lottery, lottery, lottery, lottery, lottery
:coffee:
The message was loud and clear yet the Forest Service didn’t hear it. From elected officials to users to outfitters, the one request was to reinstate the lottery system for the BWCA day use and overnight motor permits.
That would alleviate much of the congestion that caused the online permit system to crash seconds after it opened on Jan. 30. It was an embarrassment to the Forest Service which had been touting the system for months.
Like a bull in a china shop, the agency continues to head down the same path, throwing warnings and pleadings to the side. The next date is Feb. 27 and there is still no lottery.
This debacle caused U.S. Representative Pete Stauber to hold a public meeting in Ely to discuss the digital disaster.
Minnesota’s two U.S. Senators both called for “the lottery to be reinstated this year.” If you’re keeping score at home that’s one U.S. Rep and two U.S. Senators telling the Forest Service to do a 180 and go back to what works.
The Forest Service admits failure but does not learn from it. The system is broken and will not be fixed by Feb. 27. :angry2: The only solution is to bring back the lottery where everyone had a fair chance to get a high demand permit.
One excuse we heard said doing away with the lottery will cut back on the 38 percent of motor permits that don’t get used. :bs: How? No answer has been given. :confused:
We did hear a former elected official give the reason many people in Ely believe to be true. Those who don’t believe motors should be allowed in the BWCA purposefully reserve day use and overnight motor permits but never use them, thereby keeping Ely residents and customers of Ely businesses from being able to access the BWCA. No one has refuted that statement. :tut:
There is no way the Forest Service or its contractor can make internet access fair and equal. This is truly laughable. :rotflmao: There are going to be people who are closer to major hubs with high speed access who will be able to get permits and others who live in rural areas like Ely will not. This is a fact, based on the digital divide that exists in the world today.
So why would the Forest Service sit in Ely on Saturday and listen to these concerns? Will they go back to the drawing board and start over? Will they admit their plan is flawed from the start? :bonk:
If you’re new at this game, we will give you a hint. There are people in the agency who could care less if the permit system is unfair to motor users. In fact, they relish the idea the system doesn’t work. It’s part of the :bs: overall plan.
Platitudes and not answering direct questions don’t fool people up here. We’ve heard and seen this too many times. We appreciate our federal elected officials for pointing out there is only one solution: reinstate the lottery process. :happy1:
We’re also wise enough to know the chances of that happening are slim and none. :banghead: And that’s the message that was received from the U.S. Forest Service. They were here to listen, but in the end, the lottery is not in their plans.
Note from Lee:
I''ve been going to the BWCA every year for 35 years! Every year on the one last daily trip into the BWCA I have a tridition. I stop my boat at the end of the lake, remove my hat, look up into the heavens, And thank GOD for giveing me the privilage of being there one more year!
A modest little wooden cabin
Is waiting for me there,
And as I enter into its doors
Away go all my cares...
My heart is filled with memories
That can never be replaced
Although they make me sad at times
I know life's too precious to waste
To fight a fish across the miles
And reel him into view
Or simply float across the stretch
Of endless tranquil blue
To sit upon the pier at night
And gaze at the star-filled sky
That's always bigger and clearer there
It doesn't matter why
A man must have a place to go
Where his mind and soul are free
If he's lucky enough to find that door
Then God will turn the key
Basswood Lakes my secret spot
Its banks run clear and strong
And each time I return to them
I know that I belong.
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Forest Service to relaunch balky BWCA permit system March 4
:reporter; Latest article......
February 25, 2019
Associated Press
Read more..... :doofus:
ST. PAUL, Minn. — The U.S. Forest Service says it has finally fixed the bugs in a new online reservation system for Boundary Waters Canoe Area Wilderness travelers that crashed shortly after its first attempted launch last month. It’s preparing to re-launch it at 9 a.m. CST on March 4.
Outfitters and other businesses on the edge of the northeastern Minnesota wilderness area were irritated :angry2: that the Forest Service didn’t consult them before it decided last year to move away from a lottery for awarding permits for the most highly sought entry points and dates. It switched instead to a first-come, first-served online system akin to ticket sites that get bombarded with traffic when a hot new show goes on sale.
The system didn’t work when it first went live Jan. 30. The 1,200 to 1,300 people who managed to make reservations back then lost them when the system failed and will have to try again with everyone else. Here’s a look at some of the issues:
WHAT THE SYSTEM DOES
The Forest Service limits the number of parties that can enter the Boundary Waters through the most popular entry points and dates so that travelers don’t get too bunched up in the wilderness. For the most coveted permits _ for overnight trips using motors on the few lakes where they’re allowed _ the Forest Service used the lottery system through last year. It had already switched to a computerized system for most other permits.
Outfitters and resorts that serve Boundary Waters visitors regularly help their guests obtain permits. Many of those business owners thought the old lottery system worked just fine and gave everybody an equal chance. They warned that the crush would overwhelm the new system. They were right.
THE PROBLEM AND THE FIX
It was “just :whistling: a technical problem with the software,” Lisa Radosevich-Craig, who works in external affairs for the Superior National Forest, said Friday. “Technicians and contractors have figured it out.” She said they’re confident :confused: of a smooth launch when the updated system goes live again, and that testing will continue.
Addressing a common complaint from before, the Forest Service held an online training session Friday with its “cooperators,” the businesses that help visitors get permits, to make sure that they understand how to use the system.
LOCAL REACTION
“Confidence is waning,” said Willy Vosburgh of Vosburgh’s Custom Cabin Rentals on Moose Lake near Ely. He said his customers are “frustrated and upset.” He also pointed out that the Forest Service had set the relaunch for next Wednesday, then announced Thursday a delay by one more week to March 4.
Vosburgh said businesses will have to compete for the limited number of permits with everyone else who will be trying to access the system from home or work when it goes live. A party of seven might have everyone try from their own computers when the reservation period opens, but Vosburgh said businesses like his have to access the system via special credit card readers. He said he can have only three, they cost $400 apiece and they can only be used to buy permits.
POLITICAL REACTION bla..bla..bla! :angry2:
U.S. Sens. Amy Klobuchar and Tina Smith, and U.S. Rep. Pete Stauber, whose district includes the Boundary Waters, have taken the Forest Service to task for the hardships :party1: caused to outfitters and tourists. :banghead:
“The ongoing failure to restore their ability to make reservations is simply unacceptable and needs to be solved as soon as possible,” the senators said Friday in a letter to Agriculture Secretary Sonny Perdue, who oversees the Forest Service. And they asked him to inform them “how the problem came to be and how you plan to hold the contractor, Booz Allen Hamilton, responsible for the damage inflicted on outfitters and residents in our state.”
Stauber said his office had been inundated :doah: by callers with legitimate concerns about the impacts on businesses and the local economy. :taz:
“While I understand and appreciate that the USFS wants the relaunch of this new reservation system to be a successful one, we are another week closer to the busy season at the BWCA,” he said in a statement.
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*TAP*TAP*TAP* %#^$@ Why the hell won't this work?!
click on it
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Anybody try this? :scratch: I'm seeing mixed reviews elsewhere.
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:reporter; Da beginning of da end!
Da competition fur permits opened at 9:00 am
This is to report my success or lack of in da BWCA permit process. First off Borgie and I are extremely poor at computer skills. :bonk: When It comes to trying to work together on applying fur da permits it turned out like a train wreck! :rolleyes: It was da blind leading da blind! :swords: Therefore being in a race to compete for permits I soon recognized :scratch: that this was not going ta work-out. :confused:
Therefore, I decided dat da phone method was my only option before all da permits were gone. Called da phone line and it was a busy signal. (not surprised)
Redialed once again. Dis time it rang! :happy1: lady answered after a short wait (it was now 9:20 am). Told her dat we needed daily permits for da first 3 weeks in July. She checked and stated dat none were left. :banghead: Then stated dat... hey wait a minute! I still see 3 left showing fur yer 3rd in July. "I'll take um says me" "OOps! :oops1: now der gone" says her sorry.!
Our only hope is to wait and see if any others staying at our resort had gotten permits that we can get added to for some of the days during da 3 weeks. :doah:
I had ta tell the resort owner da after a great relationship of over 30 yrs dat we would have ta cancel if I can't piggyback on someone's permits during the 3 weeks. He said he has ta see how many others were successful in getin permits.
We will wait and see............. :confused:
Quick note: Later The same day yesterday I received an e-mail for two day permits. All dat after she said there was no more. :bonk: That would mean only 2 trips to Basswood on our last week of da 3 week vacation. :thumbs:
Here is an interesting fact stated by the former county commissioner.
Former St. Louis County Commissioner Mike Forsman said he has no faith that the Internet-based reservation system will be successful.
He also addressed that with the lottery system, at least 38 percent of those who obtained permits didn’t show up to use their permits on the specified date and entry point. "That 38 percent purposely don’t show up," he said. "This comes from the environmental community that typically have the permits and they’re trying to keep people out of the Boundary Waters. :angry2: They get those motor permits and they don’t show up. They don’t want motors in the Boundary Waters." :moon:
He said the issue won’t change with the Internet permit reservation system. "I’ll guarantee that you’ll have another 38 percent that don’t show up because they are bought by the environmental community that has more money that anybody in this room," Forsman said. "They can buy as many permits as they want and they don’t have to worry about that poor person whose dad or grandpa used to fish on Basswood Lake, or Moose Lake or the Chain of Lakes." :taz:
Stauber said he’s concerned about the economic impact the BWCA has on the Ely community. "The shutdown of the BWCA online permit system has economically impacted local businesses who rely on the hundreds and thousands of tourists who come out every year to enjoy the Boundary Waters," he said.
About 150,000 tourists enjoy the Boundary Waters annually which brings in $57 million in revenue according to one recent study.
"Those of us who live here know that we had restaurants that closed last year and never reopened. :lipsrsealed: "I don’t know how we got here but we have another MNLARS (state drivers license) system on our hands," Novak said. "Where was the field testing? All I see is the reactive. Where is the proactive? Our economy today is based on tourism. We have a government that is supposed to work for us. Basswood Lake used to be our playground. Now we are restricted from going to our playground." :tut:
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Of course this makes some sort of sense so they may not understand it. Bear permits used to be the same way. Tree huggers would apply for as many permits as they could. They of course never used them. Just prevented hunters from hunting. SO the DNR changed it as most of you know. NOW anyone can apply for a permit but all of the ones not bought by Aug 1 are returned to the for sale list. Those are first come first served after that date.
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That's just insane, Lee!!! What a balls-up disaster! Are we the only state that has this type of situation/area, I wonder?
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That's just insane, Lee!!! What a balls-up disaster! Are we the only state that has this type of situation/area, I wonder?
:bonk: :crazy: :thumbs:
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Online BWCA permit system works for some, not for others :moon:
Submitted by admin on Fri, 03/08/2019 - 12:12
The third attempt at having all BWCA permit reservations done online went better than the first two but there were still many who were unable to get permits. (that would be me! :taz:)
After a disastrous start on Jan. 27, the U.S. Forest Service had to cancel a second scheduled date before making the system available at 9 a.m. on Monday, March 4.
This time the system didn’t crash but there were plenty of complaints from users who were shut out from getting permits for the 2019 season.
The Forest Service announced Thursday that nearly 10,000 permits were processed on Monday.
For those who weren’t so lucky, many posted their frustrations online. :banghead: (there goes my vacation)
Posting on Twitter was Lance Johnson who wrote, “The Forest Service wrecked the Boundary Waters permit application system. System is a complete joke and many locals who have gone for decades with their families were forced out. :moon:
“Sad thing is for the last ten years I have seen increasing numbers of empty campsites and far fewer paddle groups on Basswood. This is especially true when you continue past Washington Island, it’s empty.” This is very true just ask Lee! :embarrassed:
Misty Merhar of Ely appealed to U.S. Rep. Pete Stauber in her post.
“@PeteStauber Please, PLEASE bring back the lottery system!!! My husband and I didn’t get permits this morning. :banghead: His internet wouldn’t let him log in at work and mine were issued as paddle, not motor!!! We work and live in Ely and can’t go on either of the 2 weekends we are off!!!”
One Ely applicant was able to find permits, but noted motor permits disappeared fast.
“I was able to reserve several day use motor permits. All motor permits through Prairie Portage were gone in about 40 minutes,” posted Linda Maki.
BWCA user Nancy Mcready posted, “We had difficulties as well. Had to go back to the walk me through page for each day use motors permit. Who did this website? :moon: One would think a split screen with the calendar and entry points would work better than going up & down to pick a date then an entry point.”
Sitting on Moose Lake, Bob LaTourell of LaTourell’s Moose Lake Outfitters said his business took a direct hit when customers were unable to get permits.
“I had lots of people who couldn’t log in. There were some who tried to set up an account online and couldn’t or they had to reset their password and they couldn’t,” said LaTourell.
“I have many, many guests who have been coming here for 20 years who won’t be coming this year,” said LaTourell. (yep! dat's Lee & Borgie :lipsrsealed:)
Those empty cabins will have a direct effect on Ely’s economy.
“For us not to be able to provide service to our customers that is a whole segment of visitors to Ely who won’t be here anymore,” said LaTourell.
The answer is simple for LaTourell and many others.
“We need to get the lottery system back,” he said. :happy1:
Stauber has legislation to do just that. What he doesn’t have is the support of U.S. Senators :fudd: Amy Klobuchar and Tina Smith.
Klobuchar, who is campaigning for president, has been largely silent since March 4 on the permit issue. :bs:
Smith issued the following statement, ““While I’m pleased that the new system is up and running, the unacceptable start-up problems should not have happened in the first place,” Sen. Smith said. “The BWCAW is critically important to the economic well-being of Northern Minnesota, and the new online reservation system needs to serve the needs of the businesses and residents who rely on it. I’ll continue to monitor the system to make sure it works in the long term.”
Ely BWCA user Ross Petersen said the system didn’t work for him on Monday. He believes the online system is discriminatory.
“Poor people and rural people without good internet connections get screwed. Isn’t that discrimination?” Petersen asked.
He said the online system required him to get a new password but both he and his wife were unable to do so. (The same happened ta Lee)
“Both Carol and I were trying and we couldn’t get ours to work. After I tried that three times my internet went out. By the time I got back on, the one or two motor use camping permits I wanted for Basswood were all gone,” said Petersen.
Not able to access the system prior to it going live was a common complaint.
“I kept trying to get on and check it out to see how it all worked but I couldn’t until 9:02 a.m. That was a dumb thing not to have a tutorial.” :moon:
LaTourell said he had over 20 hours of testing the site and still had problems.
“We got kicked off on a couple permits we were trying to attain and I had 20 hours of testing the site for them,” said LaTourell. “To expect customers to have that level or expertise and go through that is not very realistic.” :tut:
Ely outfitter Dan Waters of Canadian Waters said this was another example of the Forest Service not listening to the users. :moon:
Waters said to have all the BWCA permits go live on the system at the same time made no sense. :doofus:
He advocated for staggering the permit availability or do what Quetico Park does and make the permits available on a rolling basis five months prior to the date someone is looking for.
Both Waters and LaTourell said despite all of the testing and assurances the system was ready, there were still multiple issues on Monday.
“There was lots of little glitches with the system and that magnifies the problems,” said LaTourell. “When that happens and you only have a few minutes to figure it out it’s not good.”
LaTourell said the Forest Service has claimed up to 40 percent of the motor permits are not claimed and go unused. He believes that number is false and has asked for proof but has not received any data from the Forest Service.
“Our no show rate is seven percent and that’s what other cooperators have told me as well.
“They said there was 40 percent no show rate so these are not permits that are canceled . The 40 percent are not put back in the system. I don’t know where that number is coming from,” said LaTourell. :scratch:
The Forest Service’s claim that a lottery is not needed also continues to be questioned.
“They said permits are not rare enough so they can’t use a lottery for that. But look how quickly the motor permits went Monday morning,” said LaTourell.
Motor permits for Basswood Lake were gone right away, both for day use and overnight trips.
“We need to get the lottery back. :happy1: There’s a lottery process for the Easter Egg roll at the White House but we can’t get one for the Boundary Waters,” said LaTourell.
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What a joke. Too bad they screwed up the whole thing.