Crow Wing County - Ditch Riding Ban

[DaveI]

Many of you ride up there. It would be good, FOR YOU, to attend, place some calls and write some letters/emails!

The Crow Wing County Board of Commissioners is hosting two
public informational meetings regarding the proposed
ordinance to BAN the use of ATVs in County Road
Right-of-Ways (ditch use) in Crow Wing County.

If you ride in these areas and want to continue to ride in
these areas it is CRITICAL that you attend these meetings.
 If you cannot attend then PLEASE send in written comments
to the commissioners and highway department (contact
information below).  The commissioners need to hear from
the ATV riders; how it affects you and the business?s in
this county.   

April 18, 2006
Crosslake Community Center
Co. Rd. 66 on Daggett Pine Road.
Crosslake, MN
7:00 p.m.

April 19, 2006
Crow Wing County Courthouse
Courthouse Annex Meeting Room 1
326 Laurel Street
Brainerd, MN  56401
7:00 p.m.

April 25, 2006
Crow Wing County Courthouse
Board of Commissioners Room, 2nd Floor
326 Laurel Street
Brainerd, MN  56401
11:00 a.m.
*** THIS IS THE MEETING WHERE THEY MAY ADOPT THE ORDINANCE


Proposed closures can be viewed at:
http://www.co.crow-wing.mn.us/county_commisioners/docs/Proposed_ATV_Ord.pdf

http://www.co.crow-wing.mn.us/county_commisioners/docs/ATV_Public_Notice.pdf

http://www.co.crow-wing.mn.us/county_commisioners/docs/Public_Hearing_Notice_ATV_Ord.pdf


COUNTY COMMISSIONERS

District 1
Dewayne "Dewey" Tautges
5444 Sleepy Hollow Road
Fort Ripley, MN 56449
Phone:   (218)829-0125
e-mail:  dewey@brainerd.net
 
District 2
Ed Larsen, Chairman
3961 W Lake St
Pequot Lakes, MN  56472
Phone:   (218)568 4933
e-mail:  edlarsen@uslink.net
 
District 3
Terry L. Sluss
13298 Timberlane Drive
Baxter, MN  56425
Phone:   (218)825 7560
e-mail:  tlsluss@charter.net
 
District 4
Gary W. Walters
15092 Ninebark Drive
Baxter, MN  56425
Phone:   (218)828-8190
e-mail:  gary@thefiducia.com
 
District 5
John Ferrari, Vice-Chairman
20 Second Street SE
Crosby, MN  56441
Phone:   (218)546 5557


County Highway Department
611 Oak Street
Brainerd, MN 56401

[jigglestick]

thanks DaveI. this is very important. monumental to the future of atv riding.
unless you own private land in large enough tracts to really enjoy an atv, you like I are dependant on these rights of way to get from point a to point b.
all people need to do is speak up.
it is the anti's who have time and money to persue nonsense ventures like this. don't make this an easy task for them.
attend a meeting, or at the very least wite letters.
if you do nothing, then you deserve NOTHING.
don't come around whining afterwards that you just spent 16,000.00 on a new set of atv's and now have no where to ride them except in fenced off designated areas.

Dave, tell me you have put this in the other websites as well. this is very important to get out to all who care. have i said that already?

thanks dave

[JohnWester]

does this go for the people that don't want atvs in the ditches too? ?I don't want them in there, because they come up to the driveway and think it's just a big jump. ?You should see the edges of the driveway getting worn down and torn away from the atvs that ride throught the ditch. ?not to mention this is on their way to the big soo line trail that isn't too far away as they cut through the property, despite the no trespassing signs. ?if they don't practice common sense , ban em'.

you guys are going to be punished for the few stupid people.

[jigglestick]

BFG, that is the great part of being an american. we are all entitled to our own opinion.

in a bigger light however, as i recall, you enjoy your own brand of power sports.
you think this will end with all terrain vehicles?
no way, this is just opening the door to all motorized recreation. yes even outboard motors, and vehicles on lakes. go ahead and  make a stand because someone drove over the driveway you drove in on yourself. i bet their are grooves not only going across the driveway, but in and out of your driveway too :o. i am also willing to bet the grooves you gripe about are within the city, county or state right of way. hmmm. i bet these people or their parents pay taxes too.

the big problem is the people with a lack of regard to every other person that we have to share this earth with.
a little common sense and education go a long way.
go ahead and take that "you guys" stance and i will be the first to laugh at you when your favorite lake gets closed to carry in only because the ramp is contributing to errosion.

this is not meant to ruffle your feathers, but more to open the eyes of the readers who think that it doesnt effect them. it effects all of us  :(

[JohnWester]

it is in the county right of way, but who will have to fix it???  Hey, I like tearing it up on atv's just as much as the next guy... but it's the few bad apples that are going to ruin it.  Like you said, a little common sense. Unfortunatly, there are some with none, and they are seen 95% of the time.I wish they could just make wider shoulders on the roads....

[Benny]

I have to agree with the 95% rule, if your obeying the laws and respecting the owners property your never seen.

But just do one thing that is unlawful or disrupts the natural surrounding and BAM!!!.Everyone sees it.

I don't condone the people who just can't cross a drive with out shredding the ground, but can any one honestly say that a BAN will cure this?

Who is going to stop them, there isn't enough enforcement out there to catch them all.

If a BAN is placed on the ATV's there goes the moneys coming in to the state to enforce the current laws, no one will register their ATV's and they will still rip up the drive as they blow through the ditch even faster now so they don't get caught.

A BAN is NOT the answer, hefty fines and jail times will help but still not cure the problem either.

Education is the only real answer here, if these people are educated in what can happen if their actions don't improve(such as a ban) then just maybe the next time they ride that $6000 maching they will think about the property owners rights as well.

After all who wants that spendy machine sitting in the garage depreciating in value every day.

Benny

[Spinach]

Great points Benny, to be honest I am almost 100% against the ban myself, I would guess that most riders are courteus of the land owners and are law abiding citezens, why punish the whole group for a few stupid idiots that tear apart driveways, ride on lawns etc... 

Every bunch has a few bad apples, why ban them all when you can penalize the law breakers only? That would be the same as banning vehicles on public roads because a few immature people do lawn jobs and drive around the city vandalizing mailboxes, lawns etc...

This past weekend I was driving in downtown Minneapolis, it was late 10:30pm and driving down a city street, the cadillac in front of me was playing chicken with all the cars parked on the side, he would weave in and out, getting inches from the parked cars, all of a sudden he sideswipes a car at 35 mph, I was thinking outloud (WTF) just happened? I didn't want to get to close behind him fearing I'd get shot or something, they play chicken with a couple more cars and BAM he hits another car, this time I pulled a little closer and caught the license plate, thinking they were finished and I was at the place I was heading to, I slowed down, the Cadillac speeds up and just as a couple ladys close there door, they get blasted on the side, I stopped to make sure they were ok, then parked my truck.

Should all drivers be banned from driving city streets because a few idiots are out causing trouble?

[DaveI]

Yes, I posted this on other sites as well.


BFG, like said already, your opinion counts as much as mine but, take a breathe and look at the whole picture, as suggested. The anti powersport groups are not just against ATVs.

Your situation has come up before and it's one that is being looked at, for a solution. Any ideas? How about making it legal to ride the shoulder, if safe, within 50,100,?? feet of someone's driveway? So as not to tear up one's driveway approachwhen going up and back down the other side? I don't know the answer but, as Spinach posted, common sense has pretty much got lost in today's society as a whole. It doesn't make it right but, we can't have a cop at ever ditch, street corner, boat ramp, etc etc.
 

[JohnWester]

i'm all for riding the shoulder!!!   I was just commenting to my old man last weekend that they should just widen the shoulders a bit and dump class 5 on them... that would solve a lot of problems.  Now, where would that money come from????

[Manny]

no way, this is just opening the door to all motorized recreation. yes even outboard motors, and vehicles on lakes.

  I highly doubt that banning ditch riding will give right of way to banning outboard motors on lakes.  That's quite a stretch, wouldn't you say?  It's like banning guns...as if that's gotten more difficult inthis state to carry a concealed firearm  .

I'm going to get hammered for my thoughts, but I'm a big boy and I can handle it.  I use an ATV for one sole purpose: deer hunting - gettin gto and fro an area and not for ripping up people's driveways.  Now, my passion is trout fishing and I've had several negative encounters with "the bad apples" and not once have any of those people ever been fined, etc.  Case in point is the North Branch and South Branch of the Whitewater near Elba where ATV trails rut right throught the stream on numerous occasions, all while illegal accessing land that has been posted by the DNR as "No Motorized Vehicles."  To me, the DNR is a bunch of pansies in the first place for A.) not establishing specified said trails (notiec I didn't say MORE trails) and B.) not enforcing specified said trails.  You guys want to "tear it up," be my guest, as long as it's ON DESIGNATED TRAILS, and while we're at it, someone rationally explain to me why ATV's need to open up the 11,000 acre area of the North Shore Trail (which happens to cross roughly 50 designated trout streams)??

On a side note, my parents own some lake property in Aitkin Co.  I happen to get the Aitkin Independent Age and read constantly  in the CO report about illegal ATV use.  Will it ever end?  What person should be given the right to ride an ATV when they (bad apples again) are ripping through closed wetland areas?  And in reading this thread, I'm supposed to support a lifting of a ditch riding ban?

In the words of Ron White, "I don't think so, Scooter."

Enjoy tearing up those ditches, fellas,
D.A.

[Benny]

D.A if you are really in the mind set that your rights to use a motor on your boat won't ever come under attack, then brother you best wake up and smell the oil burning.

It HAS ALREADY been in the works for many years now.
Same with the snowmobiles,chainsaws,lawnmowers,
weedwackers, and ANY TWO STROKE oil burning engine.

There was a bill just three years ago that started out to ban all marine engines that used pre-mix fuel, because it pollutes OUR waters.

In fact, there is a federal law right now that states that all two stroke motors will be banned in the comming years.

I can't find the bill now on a search of the legislature but I know it was passed by the feds.

Now what ever gives you the idea that YOUR rights won't be crushed in the future.

Ever read the mission statement of that radical group up near Duluth that call them selves conservationist for Minnesota?

They want to ban every thing from ATV's to mopeds because some one in their little world decided that they caused to much noise or to much smoke.

Your time is comming, just wait and see.

Benny

[Manny]

So if we ban ATV's, than everything else is fair game is really what you're trying to turn this thread into???

If you call a group who wants to ban ATV's and all thing motorized a "radical" conservation group, what label do the ATV'ers get?  I fail to see anything that the ATV crowd wants as conservation oriented.  You want rights and more places to ride.  Great.  I just happen to presonally disagree with that, and if I'm labeled a radical conservationist because I think ATV's damage the environment and already don't have enough rules and regulations, then so be it.

My initial response had little to do with two-stroke engines (frankly I could care less that "big brother" is trying to clean up the air and water by restrictions on engines).

D.A.

[jigglestick]

D.A. the point that all motorized activities will come under attack if they have not allready, was brought up very early in this topic. it has been re-iterated several times, so i don't think anyone is trying to turn this thread into that sort of discussion. it has been basically all along.
i understand your point , but you seem to believe that all people who are pro ATV, are out there "ripping it up".
the same then can be said that when you are going to and from your deer stand that you too, are ripping it up.
this is the type of topic that has potential to become en-flamed rather easily.
instead it would be nice if two different points of view could come together to air their differences, with both sides coming away with a better understanding.

personally, i have never bought into this erosion bit. it is just an angle that the anti's rely on for ammunition. if i drive my ATV across a floating bog and come out the other side, climb up the bank, leaving an obvious trail, tell me what real harm has it done?
if i did it a hundred times, what real harm has it done. if you have spent time here in the wood and you know where to look, you can still find trails where the horse drawn skids full of logs were pulled. the trees have grown back... the weeds and underbrush have grown in, but there are to grooves in the ground.
big deal.
what if a hill side erodes? whats it going to cause? a hole all the way to china?
i am not buying the erosion bit period.
crossing the stream i guess i could buy into that argument a little bit, but unless it is hundreds of times in a short period of time then i wouldn't care less.
we need mandatory education, and people need to be held accountable for improper actions, but that is going to take more law enforcement, and that is going to take more money. we all are going to pay for that.

when i stand here in my yard watching the ATVs roar up the highway in either direction right down the center line, with riders on, i just shake my head. this happens on the weekends. most of them are not local, but i know of a few locals who are guilty of that very thing.

this is the sort of behavior that everyone notices. if i drove across your driveway you probably wouldn't even notice me. unless of course, you are just plain anti ATV, then you would scowl at me. all i want to do is have a nice day.
you should do the same.

[DaveI]

If you call a group who wants to ban ATV's and all thing motorized a "radical" conservation group, what label do the ATV'ers get?? I fail to see anything that the ATV crowd wants as conservation oriented.? You want rights and more places to ride.? Great.? I just happen to presonally disagree with that, and if I'm labeled a radical conservationist because I think ATV's damage the environment and already don't have enough rules and regulations, then so be it.

I'll go back and reread, DA, but, don't you use your ATV during deer hunting? I can't remember if it was you or BFG. The label I would give a majority of people who own an ATV is, an occassional user, just like you.

Years back, Senator Marty and his anti-atv group stated that ATV use is rampant and creating chaos on public lands acroiss the state. Now, with the recent gas tax study revealing the amount of money going into the ATV fund should be increased, Senator Marty and his group now say the ATV gas tax fund shouldn't get more since there's not much real use on public lands. Now, they need to make up their minds. All in all, to me, radicals will say anything to get something, and that's just what I hear anti-atv groups doing.

ATVers, on the other hand, have been asking for the same thing for many years, a trail system, so people don't ride randomly. In order to have a trail system, ATVers were told they need eductaion of riders and more law enforcement. Over the last few years, ATVers have pumped in a ton of money into education and enforcement, with the same ending, the anit-atv groups calling foul. You know as well as anyone, there's not enough CO's for any outdoor recreation, hunting, fishing, boating, etc etc. ANY non-conservative action that you could say about ATVing, just substitute another outdoor recreation and we're ending up in the same spot. Should the other outdoor recreations be banned? Thta would be highly unlikely and unreasonable.

So, myself, I would say I'm a conservationist since I would like to ride on trails and conserve other areas where riding should not take place. And, that's where you'd find a majority of ATV owners, I would bet.

BFG, if you would find an ATV club in your area, I think they'd be more than willing to help you find a solution to your ditch problem in front of your house. Maybe that section of ditch should be designated ATV trail and could receive funds for maintaining it. Maybe the shoulders could be widened to experiement with such a regulation as using the shoulder instead of crossing the driveway, using ATV fund dollars?

Approach it like you'd approach other recreation problems and we might find a solution reasonable to everyone. How about a speed limit for crossing driveway approaches? A rider slows up, crawls over the driveway. How do you think that would work for you?

[Benny]

D.A you are very welcome to post your personal thoughts here and you are certantly intitled to your own opinion.

And I only used the  2 strock engine as an example of what has already been done.

Sure "Big Brother"is trying to clean up the polutants, but he will not stop there.

Once the "anti whatever cause" gets thier way one time then everything else on thier agenda id fair game.

You or some one else made the example of banning guns, people said it can't happen.

I know one country in particulatr that every law abiding outdoors person said NO WAY, THEY WILL NEVER BAN OUR GUNS!

Well guess what, the queens land down under did just that, not only did they ban guns the cops went right into thier houses and took the guns out of thier hands.

Now the crime rate had qudrupaled in the larger cities, some of the areas in Melborne are not safe to walk around in in broad daylight with a cop on the corner next to you.

What about the PETA people saying that fish feel pain?That group wants to ban fishing and every other outdoor sport most of us Minnesotains love to do.

Think they can't ever succed, they grow stronger each year!
We have just been lucky that most people are now finialy seeing them for what they truly are.

There are better answers that we can all agree on if we stop yelling ban this or ban that and start looking for them.

Dave brought up some great ideas, the ATV clubs are there to help everyone not just the ATV crowd.

If the ATV clubs were as well funded and as well organized as the sled clubs there would be more trails or designated areas to ride on than there are now.

But in comparison the sled clubs are way older that any of the ATV clubs including ATVAM.

They to had faced a ban at one time, even the insurance companies tried to crush the big bore sleds.

So D.A please give us some of your ideas that you honestly think can help every one involved to do thier recreational choice and not ban one or the other.

One idea I can give you is to put up an orange fence to stop the people from going over your drive.
Yea I know some clown will ride right over it some day, but it will keep the law abiding riders off so they don't get blamed for ripping up your drive way.

Benny

[JohnWester]

my dad ended up putting up about 6 of those reflector posts on each side of the drive... so far seems to be working.

[Benny]

Great idea BFG,I have seen others doing that as well.

Maybe if D.A has a big issue with the drive way deal the local ATV club in his area would at the least be willing to send some volunteers out to pound them in for him.

But you have to ask for this help, they don't know there is an issue unless told about it.

Please make sure they are the bright reflective kind so the idiots who are tearing up the drive can see them.

It is against the law to place any thing in a ditch or road way that is meant to harm another person, if they are bright reflective posts and the idiot still runs over then and gets hurt they are at fault then.


Benny

[Manny]

Maybe if D.A has a big issue with the drive way deal the local ATV club in his area would at the least be willing to send some volunteers out to pound them in for him.

I don't have issues with ATV's on my driveway; I live in the city.  My issues lie elsewhere (i/e illegal ATV use on wetlands and through trout streams with little remorse and no consequences).

personally, i have never bought into this erosion bit. it is just an angle that the anti's rely on for ammunition. if i drive my ATV across a floating bog and come out the other side, climb up the bank, leaving an obvious trail, tell me what real harm has it done?
if i did it a hundred times, what real harm has it done. if you have spent time here in the wood and you know where to look, you can still find trails where the horse drawn skids full of logs were pulled. the trees have grown back... the weeds and underbrush have grown in, but there are to grooves in the ground.

By the way, jigglestick, I've spent plenty of time in the "wood," and if you think that ATV's don't cause erosion, especially here in southeast Minnesota that already has loose top soil, horrendous farming practices, and a base layer of limestone, then you are delusional.  It doesn't take a hundred times up the bank to rip it to shreads (that would be through the silt and limestone stream bottom to get to the bank in the first place as well).  It only takes a few times to tear it up. 

Horse drawn skids versus a four wheeled motorized vehicle is an apples to oranges comparison.

Thanks for an interesting conversation on the matter.  My opinion hasn't changed since the initial post, so I'm out of this thread.

D.A.

[jigglestick]

delusional ::)
i am not arguing the point that there is what you call erosion. i am just not buying into the devastaing results claimed by anti's.

this is our earth. we are here together,whether we like or not.

you know, i could say the same about you if you think you can live in this world with the rest of us and think you can demand a euphoria all of your own.
i have an idea. from now on, why don't you drag your deer out the old fashioned way so you don't upset yourself.

[GRIZ]

This might be a bit off the topic. I do not trail ride. I use a three wheeler for going from A to B. Usually for the purpose of trapping, visiting a buddy or running to town for lawn mower gas. I don't believe anyone around here drives them in the ditch and don't see how they could. The ditches are so full of gopher mounds and badger piles you'd dare go no more than ten MPH. I drive right down the road and use the old fasioned hand signals. I look back often and if I see someone behind me I move over to the shoulder. I have never been pulled over or ticketed but have drove past them on different occasions.

I don't have no interest in rippin it up. The difference I see is wheather the people use the ATV for a pupose or as a toy. I know some use it for both. It just seems to me if you want to spin tires and tear things up do it on private land. If your in a ditch and find a mudhole move up the ditch so you don't spin up a bunch of ruts. If you see it before hand get out of the bottom of the ditch before hand. It is just plain common sense as I see it.

[Joe]

I've seen a lot good riders and a lot of terrible riders, most of which took place in Nemadji State forest. The problem with mud holes is their too tempting and once a group of riders runs trough it the problem just multiplies. I think the state should look at building more atv parks. I just hate to see all the State Forests become ohv parks. I also think the groups that hold these ohv rallys on public land should be responsible for providing COs during their events. I know there is a lack of respect to our public lands by many other users, it's just that ohv abuse is so much more visible and costly to repair.