high fence huge bucks

[Auggie]

Auggie,

I think we actually agree more than we disagree. Where we diverge is the cover high fence shooting uses to guises itself. It ENTIRELY tries/wants/needs to mimic hunting. You can't debate that. If we're going to reinvent the wheel, it's an outright admission that you're modifying the "orginial" form. Are we perfecting it, doing it justice or otherwise? The folks that go high fence don't want to differentiate from it. You know how it clouds hunting issues. Go and anwer the same interiew Uncle Ted had and see how your own answers come out. I gotta ask, does free range hunting affect high fence negatively?
I agree it's free enterprise, and have at it, because the laws are such that it can. Not one single business is going to step up and denounce it when so much money hits their bottom line without any expense. The only people that support it are those that run them and those that shoot in them.
Hell, if it was in fact a better reinvention of the wheel or largely promoted the sport in a positive light you know I'd be on board with it. But it doesn't and they are two different things.
I work in the industry as well and have been offered scores of hunts in high fence situations all over. It is a different culture of people, to be sure. I personally think the culture of new hunters as well as the ease of high fencing has changed the culture and there in lies the supply/demand issue. Trust me, there is zero jealousy or envy on my end. I have the means to pay for them and it doesn't enter the equation.
I apologize if I come off high and mighty and I don't see the need for me to further express my feelings/thoughts about the issue. It ought to be pretty clear and there are so many other facets to this debate none of us have the time for. Please consider that I understand the economics of it...good and bad.
Best to you all the rest of the season and same goes for the hardwater season.

The reinvention of the wheel has nothing to do with the hunting aspect. You misunderstood me a bit. The reinvention of the wheel is in the ranching end of it. High fence has zero, I repeat zero affect on hunting. The same goes the other way. It only has an affect if you choose to let it in your own mind. There is not one person here that can tell me they have been affected by high fence in a negative way, other than in their own closed mind. I however can guarantee that 100% of you have been affected in a positive way, or use some product that is in direct relation to the high fence like it or not. And although money may not be the issue in your case, model 12, I have found it is in about 90% of others who do not give it a thought. We have all the time in the world to talk about this. No one said this post needs to end in an hour. Feel free to bring up any part of this debate you wish to educate everyone with.

[Auggie]

**This news fits the subject**



Austin, Texas / Minnesota man helped smuggle trophy deer
Associated Press

Updated: 11/25/2008 11:58:56 PM CST


Two men have been sentenced to federal prison for illegally transporting white-tailed deer across state lines from Minnesota to Texas, according to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.

The deer were transported for trophy hunts.

A federal district judge in Plano, Texas, on Monday sentenced Robert Eichenour, owner of Circle E Ranch in Bedias in Grimes County, to 1 1/2 years in prison. He also must serve three years' probation after his release and pay a $50,000 fine.

Brian Becker, of Madelia, Minn., was sentenced to two years and nine months in federal prison, followed by three years' probation.

Both men were convicted of felony violations of the federal Lacey Act, which prohibits the transportation of illegally captured or prohibited animals across state lines.

During the probation period, neither man will be allowed to sell deer.

The department said in a news release that Eichenour and Becker were caught smuggling 14 white-tailed bucks from Minnesota to Eichenour's ranch. Investigators say the plan was for Eichenour to bring in hunters and sell hunts for the trophy Minnesota bucks. The investigation found that over a four-year period, the two smuggled about $300,000 worth of white-tailed bucks.

The men were caught in an October 2006 smuggling sting operation Texas Parks and Wildlife conducted with U.S. Fish and Wildlife agents.

Demand outweighed right to be free in this case I guess.

Auggie, how many deer contribute to 300 thousand worth? I know the article said they were caught smuggling 14 deer, but over a period of three years they smuggled in 300k worth. How many deer is that?

22lex, That can depend on many things. Size of the animals in question all the way to disease status. A 150 class buck with no status in disease programs can be purchased for a few hundred bucks. In turn that deer can not be moved out of state in a legal way. This is part of the problem Mr. Becker ran in to. Doing things the legal way.

[Auggie]

Yah I agree that freaks of nature are cool to see like the ones on the first page of this thread. However highfence hunting is not hunting, it is killing and harvesting, it is just like paying a farmer to go out and shoot one of his cattle and no different, and the end results are exactly the same meat in the freezer. The sad part is that these animals end up being recorded as records in Safari club international, Boone and Crokett, and Pope and young, that is not fair nor is it ethical to the REAL hunters who put their time in, in the real woods, and paid their years of dues of sitting out in the real woods (wild).

Yah if that is what you can afford, and that is all that you have time for, is just killing and harvesting, then I guess to each their own. But do not insult the rest of the general populas that are REAL hunters that take THIER chances out in the wild like real stewards of the outdoors, by calling yourselfs hunters because you are anything but. Hell the only thing they don't do is put them on a leash and tie them to a tree for you. Heck they even come complete with a serial number micro chip implanted under thier skin so that they can positivly indentify them incase they escape or are shot by someone that did not pay them for it. Oh lest we not forget the nice piece of jewelry hanging from thier ear with the herd number on it, heck you can say "I shot #52 got him right in the bread basket, he was so stupid he walked right up to me at 30 yards and just stood there looking at me." Yah right all he was looking for was his daily ration of grain that he normally got from a human probably right out of thier hand. I especially like the way that one monster ran right up to the camera when they shook the grain bucket, it only took them 15 seconds to cross the pasture and get to less than 10 yards from the camera operator. That seems real challenging to me!!! The good news is for folks that hunt inside the 12 foot high fence is that if your a lousy shot or had too many the night before and you miss all you have to do is run them into the corner of the fence and then are trapped and you can empty your clip into them.

I am sorry for the rant here folks but you really have to look at this the right way it is a business and they are trading in animals, they sell only to the wealthy, and the wealthy pay because because it is quick and easy, all of it can be done in a matter of an hour or so. The ranch owner saw an opportunity to go from starving and struggeling to rich and famous butt kisser. You really can not blame them that the demand for this type of outdoor activities is present, however I do believe that the state goverment of each and every state should make this type of activity illegal. This would put a stop to alot of different problems that are now facing the hunting community. They could go after not only the shooter but they could also nail the rancher for trading in animals. I believe that this is only the start of the demise to OUR hunting future soon it will be if you do not own or lease land of your own you will not have any where to hunt, and I do not believe for one second that hunting for anyone should be that way.

Later JD

JD, if it was as easy as you claim it to be, everyone with 5 acres would be doing it. Kinda like cattle you say. Supply and demand would bring the price down in a hurry eh. Please do your research before bashing an industry you really have no clue about. You said it best yourself. "To each their own".
I really wish some body would show us a valid reason this has an affect on you hunting like you always have. Don't come with the crap about the anti's having great ammo. Since all of you that disagree with it and believe it is like ranching cattle are still eating beef whenever you choose, I don't see how you can have an issue. Please tell us what, and I quote" alot of the issues facing the hunting community are?????"

[stevejedlenski]

i think people got off track a little. yes high fence opperations do a lot of research which helps hunters, i cant think of any way that a high fence opperation gives hunters a bad name. however what most people are saying is that they dislike calling your clients hunters, and that taking your animals is hunting. yes you can argue and say that if an enclosure is big enough its like hunting, but there is still that feeling of tampering with the odds. eventhough it may just be food and genetics, its just not the same as hunting genuine wild animals. even if you own a whole section, you could cover it in a day and chase one buck and not have to worry about it going across a road or property line where you can no longer have a chance. so what i think people are getting at in this post is that no matter how small the advantage is in a high fence they feel the animal has no chance other than to keep moving. and yes i know a deer can cover a lot of ground in a day... but its still the idea. i know many hunters would do it if they had the money but its all up to the individual. me id rather not as well as some others on here. and where a trophy comes from outsmarting hunters and dodging traffic, not genetic engenering and being kept in a fence until big enough to take.
so no it may not be bad for hunters and i know we have benifited from it. but to some, me included, i like the challenge of hunting small pieces of property where the deer make it a challenge to get close enough without pushing them into another hunter and making their day.

[Auggie]

   Steve,
 I couldn't agree with you more. On about 90% of your post. Not once have I said any different. In fact I believe the exact term I used was similar to hunting. Some of these ranches however are as tough to cover, or harder to cover than any chunk of land most of us hunt on a regular basis. Most do not realize what a 10,000 acre ranch is for size. 640 acres in a square mile. Do the math. Now granted, all of these operations are not of this quality. But you get what you pay for. Just like everything else in life.
 What bothers me is most of the nay sayers don't have the information straight and do not realize all the benefits they get from these operations. It is obvious you do understand this, and I thank you for taking an honest look at what it really is. As for trophy animals, again I say who cares. If some one wants to claim it as a trophy, how did it hurt anyone? No skin off any one of our backs right.
  Just because it is not for you and me, and a host of others, does not make it wrong or bad. This is the point I am trying to drive home.

[beeker]

there seems to be a big push on the "ethical" side of hunting on quit a few threads with the old school debate and baiting...  what I see is a bunch of guys devoted to a sport and the pursuit of their game and they're passionate about it which is great and I like hearing the opinions of others even if they aren't the same as mine...
I already admitted that if I won a fenced hunt I would do it. the animals are impresive. but somehow being lumped in the same boat as the guys that pay those fees doesn't sit well with me not because I can't afford 10k for a deer but it's almost seems like they're pretending to be something they're not. a trophy is something you earn and you show it to your pals and you brag about it.  when I played sports not every team got a trophy so next year you worked harder until you got one. it was a level of acheivement that you earned and was repsected by your peers. I suppose I could of went to the store and just bought a trophy but there is a difference right?  10,000 acres is huge, but toss in a guide and a stand on the back of a truck and not to mention most of these places guarantee you get your deer. these guys don't show up at these ranche's and plan to hike around all day in foot pursuit. I used to work with pharma and one of our clients always wanted to hunt buffalo so we took him to a ranch in ND they drove him within 200 yards pointed out a buffalo, the old doc couldn't get a shot.. so they drove within 150 yards, the entire time the guide was telling us how spooky the buffalo were, they couldn't care less we were there, then we drove within 75 yards the old fart shot his buffalo, within seconds a tractor was there to pick it up.. it was sad and  stupid.
as for bad and wrong
it's bad for the species to mess with their genetics, it's bad for the hunters when pita shows the video of a cougar being released on a farm and then shot coming out of the cage, it's wrong to reduce a deers fear of humans and then treat them like their free range and hunt them. its was fenced deer that introduced TB in the 90's into michigans wild deer so what illness is next as virus's mutate they become stronger what will the next virus be?
if your rancher is responsible and follows the laws and regulations then so be it make your money off these guys that think they can buy the respect of other hunters but again it's reducing many many chance factors that the non fenced hunters have to face when they go out i don't want those trophys in the record books any more than I want berry bonds knocking off babe ruths record.

[Auggie]

Beeker,
   Nobody has lumped you with anybody else. Nobody has claimed there is not a difference here.

   Genetics have been improved over time with selective breeding. Why is that wrong? Is it wrong to eat that turkey that can now reach weights of 50lbs? Or the pig that can grow larger and leaner in less time? Or to drink the milk that was produced by the cow that now produces twice as much milk as its ancestors did 50 years ago? Most do not seem to have a problem with this.
   When it comes to disease we are the most monitored sector of livestock the Board of Animal Health oversees. It was cattle that brought TB to MN a few years back and introduced it into the wild deer herd. So should we stop raising cattle and other livestock? What disease is going to be next with chickens, hogs, cattle, whatever? Was it wrong to domesticate these other animals? Maybe we should quit hunting with dogs, I mean all they are is wild critters that were selectively bred over time to manipulate traits that fit our needs. I guess all of this was wrong too.
    The excuse that the anti hunting groups use it as a tool are lame at best. These select videos are no different than any other picture or video of the wounded wild game, the pictures of slob poachers with gross over limits, or anything else of a nature that they disagree with. In the end it has been nothing but a benefit to Joe Blow Hunter. It all comes down to being misinformed. Hunt like you have in the past, I will even join you. But don't tell me that the high fence has had a negative affect on you or anybody else, because it simply is not true. And where are all these animals getting in the record books that so many speak of?

[22lex]

And where are all these animals getting in the record books that so many speak of?

It's probably not as common as one would think. More than likely it's hearsay, false accusations, or plain old jealousy.

What's one of the first things people who usually don't have contact with hunter, say about a world class animal they may have shot? "Probably poached it, or shot over the fence line."

Heck, if you don't wear your orange in some of the pictures people question your legality half the time like there are set rules in taking pictures of your harvest.

Without going off-topic, my point is that it is probably less common than one would "assume".

[beeker]

22 your right I think there is allot of jealousy out there and a bunch of this is spurred on by jealousy.   and i usually say "I would have passed on that" or "that would have been a better deer next year"... when I see someone talking up a big deer, just to mess with them and get my jabs in, but then I give em the thumbs up and ask for the story.

as far as chickens, turkey and such... I don't buy these from the store I have cousins that raise them and I buy in bulk or a side of beef at a time, to save money, to avoid old meat that's been relabled, and to avoid the hormones plus it tastes better I think. I am freightened by some of the stuff out there that I don't know about when it comes to raising these animals, and I am relieved everytime i hear of a meat recall because I know I'm not effected.

the ranch animals do good research I see both sides here but I don't see a clear victory on either side. as long as there is opposition or a side wanting to be the absolute correct voice on this I think both sides loose because hunters need to stick together to protect what we do to ensure there are public lands out there that have free range animals for joe blow to hunt. less face it the rich will always have a way to do what ever they want, the common guy needs to watch out for himself by sticking together.
 
either way I appreciate your responses as they are well thought out and offer a great perspective. I have never really given it any thought as to why I didn't like the idea of a fenced hunt but I knew I didn't like it. and you have forced me to question my reasons.

[Auggie]

22 your right I think there is allot of jealousy out there and a bunch of this is spurred on by jealousy.   and i usually say "I would have passed on that" or "that would have been a better deer next year"... when I see someone talking up a big deer, just to mess with them and get my jabs in, but then I give em the thumbs up and ask for the story.

as far as chickens, turkey and such... I don't buy these from the store I have cousins that raise them and I buy in bulk or a side of beef at a time, to save money, to avoid old meat that's been relabled, and to avoid the hormones plus it tastes better I think. I am freightened by some of the stuff out there that I don't know about when it comes to raising these animals, and I am relieved everytime i hear of a meat recall because I know I'm not effected.

the ranch animals do good research I see both sides here but I don't see a clear victory on either side. as long as there is opposition or a side wanting to be the absolute correct voice on this I think both sides loose because hunters need to stick together to protect what we do to ensure there are public lands out there that have free range animals for joe blow to hunt. less face it the rich will always have a way to do what ever they want, the common guy needs to watch out for himself by sticking together.
 
either way I appreciate your responses as they are well thought out and offer a great perspective. I have never really given it any thought as to why I didn't like the idea of a fenced hunt but I knew I didn't like it. and you have forced me to question my reasons.

    Beeker that is the point I have been trying to drive home through out the post. People just dis like it. Most really have no reason other than pure ignorance, jealousy, and or false information. It is not the type of thing that most of us consider a great outdoor experience, but at the same time it does not make it wrong for those who do. People tend to be like sheep, I am just trying to open the eyes of the flock.

   22lex, you hit the nail on the head. It is hear say, not fact. Every case I have ever heard of someone trying to enter a ranch animal in the books, it has been found out. Big deer are a big deal! You can bet your bottom dollar that any big deer, pen raised or wild has been seen by eyes other than the person who harvested the animal. It always seems to find a way out.