River Guides forced back to school

[sandmannd]

Many will lose valuable income while taking a course to comply as the Coast Guard cracks down on license rules.

By DENNIS ANDERSON, Star Tribune
Last update: September 17, 2009 - 10:24 PM

If you're looking for a fishing or hunting guide on the St. Croix, Mississippi or Minnesota rivers, look again. And again. Chances are you won't find one. Most, it turns out, have been sidelined -- temporarily, if not permanently -- by the U.S. Coast Guard and its decision to enforce federal licensing requirements on those waters.

The Coast Guard's efforts in recent weeks have sidelined some of the state's biggest names in guiding, including Dick (Griz) Grzywinski of St. Paul. Griz is among the best and most experienced multi-species guides in the state. In recent years, due to his advancing age and the resurgence of walleye populations in metro regions of the Mississippi and St. Croix, he has concentrated more on these waters and less on lakes up north.

Griz is one of as many as 30 guides who have been contacted as far south as Iowa by Twin Cities-based Coast Guard representatives. Virtually none have the "Six Pack'' license the Coast Guard requires of anyone carrying passengers for pay on these waters.

Griz, who supports himself guiding, has lost more than a month's work since the Coast Guard contacted him. "I guess I have to take the course to get the license,'' he said. "I make my living off those rivers. I haven't gone to school in a long time and hardly read anymore. But I'm going to have to take the course if I want to work.''

To attain a license, guides must attend a course given by independent contractors -- community colleges, in some instances -- lasting about 60 hours. Additionally, prospective licensed guides must know CPR and must agree to submit to random drug tests. A special work permit intended, basically, to screen terroristic fishing and hunting guides also must be obtained.

Total cost: about $1,000.

"They say if you don't have a license and you get caught guiding, the penalty is $10,000 a day,'' Griz said.

Coast Guard Chief Warrant Officer John Nay said Thursday the effort -- some call it a crackdown -- became a priority this summer for the six Coast Guard officers stationed at Fort Snelling. Nay's office reports to one in St. Louis, and apparently the guide-compliance directive came from there.

"The waters we're concerned with in Minnesota are the Minnesota, the Mississippi to its headwaters, and the St. Croix River to Taylors Falls,'' Nay said.

Nay said he and others in his office, along with members of the local Coast Guard Auxiliary, have used the Internet and other means this summer to locate guides working on these rivers. They've also visited bait shops and marinas in an attempt to find guides.

"Because ours is a small office, we haven't enforced this requirement in the past,'' Nay said. "Basically, since 9/11 we've been involved with more security issues. Now we've been trying to educate guides about the requirement and notify them that if they don't comply and they are caught on the water or we learn of their operations, an enforcement action can be taken.''

Griz said the Coast Guard representative who called his house was abrupt, if not rude, when informing him that he needed to be licensed. Another guide who asked not to be named said he received a call instructing him to "Get off the river immediately.''

Nay said that to his knowledge, no Coast Guard auxiliary member has contacted guides personally. Most auxiliary members are retirees, or nearly so, who own their own boats and want to participate in Coast Guard work as volunteers.

In June the Coast Guard began training auxiliary members, who then joined with active duty officers in identifying guides to contact.

When a guide was contacted, he or she was asked if they wanted to "submit to an inspection,'' Nay said.

Most said no once they realized they could pass the inspection only if they held a Six Pack license.

Taking a course isn't a prerequisite to submitting to the Coast Guard exam, Nay said. But the test would be difficult to pass without formal preparation. A CPR course also is recommended in advance of the test, say some who have taken it and become licensed.

"Grandfathering in'' experienced guides isn't possible, Nay said.

Also, licensed guides are welcome to -- if not encouraged to -- snitch on unlicensed guides to the Coast Guard, Nay conceded. Some guides who have lost business and income in recent weeks since the Coast Guard's effort began say that's what has occurred in this case.

Whether that's true is beside the point, Nay suggested.

"If someone hires a guide to go on one of these rivers, there is a level of professionalism that is expected on behalf of the client,'' he said. "The client is expecting the guide to have a level of expertise.'' For that to happen, licensing of guides is necessary, Nay said.

Maybe. But making a living also is necessary, and many of the guides involved -- Griz is one -- have been working for decades with little to show for it in terms of money. But their clienteles are happy. And I can't remember an incident involving a fishing guide anywhere in Minnesota in which a client was hurt.

The Coast Guard could have implemented its new program and enforcement effort more gradually, it seems, allowing guides to finish out their summers in advance of taking the first Six Pack course, which isn't available until later this fall.

As Griz said, "They sure threw a wrench into my summer, I'll tell you that.''

The six pack license is outragous for river guides. Most take no more than two folks in their 20' or less boat. Why would they need a license to run six passengers on an up to 100 ton vessel? If you want guides licesensed, that's fine. Why not license all guides in the state? Not just the river. There are those that have taken the course and said there is very little to do with running the river or guiding and don't make you better. I would take Griz on the water over anyone who just got certified.

Just more signs of Big Gov't.

[JohnWester]

this is fu$%&^& ridiculous.

[Tyler Rother]

Always picking on the little people and small business's. That's screwed up. Get all the guides together and go against the coast guard! They are nothing but a joke.

[boats]

What has this got to do with big government? This has nothing to do with school either, you don't need school to sit for the test, just meet the prerequisites and take it. This has been the law for many many years, it has just gotten more coverage now that they are going to take enforcement action. The enforcement has been stepped up because of the nearly total disregard of the rules in the areas away from the Great Lakes or oceans.You don't need a tonnage license, just a 6 pack. It really doesn't matter how many people you take out, if you want to charge (thats the key) for passengers in federal waters you need the credential and always have. Its really no different than having a license to drive, you already know how to drive, why more regulation, because its the law and has been forever. Your choice is to get a drivers license or walk. Just because you never got caught or never even knew of the law doesn't make it ok to challenge its validity or whether or not you should have to comply. If you want to "be paid" for taking people fishing, sightseeing, whatever, you have to pass the test, physical, drug screen to do it legally, nothing new. If you want to go fishing and not get paid for anything, you can take anyone you like, no license needed.

[GRIZ]

What are they talking about when they say six pack lic.?

[sandmannd]

A six pack captains license is required on the rivers. It allows you to take up to six clients and use up to a 100 ton vessel. Most guides I know take 2-3 clients out and use fishing boats under 20' so to me, this license is over kill.

[The General]

Not that I would do this and please don't eat me up for this.  But couldn't you just sell the customer a new hat for say $100 (or what ever the going rate per day is) and the fishing is free?  Then technically the customer is paying for a new hat.  I'd get the lic. personally but if the law is you charge someone to be out on the boat you just charge them for something else.  Kind of like a customer buying your product and you take them out for a round of golf or in this case fishing.  In fact you could be a Fawkinnae salesman.  By a shirt and get free fishing.  What a deal! 

[sandmannd]

Yea, I'm sure you could do something like that but if you get caught guiding out there without the license it's $10k per day of guiding. Not really worth the risk.

[GRIZ]

Boy It does seem like a bunch of BS. I could understand requiring CPR training, maybe some competant person training incase of mishaps and stuff like that. I wouldn't even see the need for boat handling courses. Most of these guys can prolly do a better job of handling a boat than the guys for the coast guard. Because they spend more time on the water than those clowns. Just to make the CG happy heck give em an obstacle course on the river to manuver. Then get off thier back and let them get back to business.

Six people on a 100 ton vessel. Come on a boat that size could have a football game on board.

Sounds like some bigger outfit that may have a bit of cash or lack there of due to slow economy is trying to get rid of some competition by raising a stink to me.

[Fawkinnae]

...and the General is this months Fawkinnae Employee of the Month. Congratulations General!

And what Griz says. Talk about overkill.

Not that I would do this and please don't eat me up for this.  But couldn't you just sell the customer a new hat for say $100 (or what ever the going rate per day is) and the fishing is free?  Then technically the customer is paying for a new hat.  I'd get the lic. personally but if the law is you charge someone to be out on the boat you just charge them for something else.  Kind of like a customer buying your product and you take them out for a round of golf or in this case fishing.  In fact you could be a Fawkinnae salesman.  Buy a shirt and get free fishing.  What a deal! 

[Lee Borgersen]

Just got this e-mail from a friend in Ely.

"Lee,
I hear they are already contacting all resorts & tow boat operators in the Ely/Lake of the Woods/Crane Lake area, and rumored to be starting on fishing guides.  Looks like no more guides anywhere when strict enforcement kicks in.  Unbelievable!!!!
 
Jim"

[boats]

The lack of understanding of the rules and posting about it is why it seems like overkill. Long before any of us were alive there have been rules and mariner credentials pertaining to these and alot of other waters. A six-pak license is a slang term for OPUV (operator of uninspected passenger vessels), this is the lowest level of USCG licensing. This allows you to carry up to six passengers for hire on an uninspected boat. Taking more than six requires a tonnage license and an inspected boat, that is, built to USCG specs and inspected yearly, not the courtesy inspection either, I pay $500 to get inspected, (not like I have a choice). You don't need a tonnage license to take a few people out in your 18' fishing boat, and tonnage has nothing to do with weight, it has to do with a measurement formula of interior space on a vessel. 100 tons is a level of masters license, nothing to do with vessell weight. The most important part of the test is a section called rules of the road. It takes 90% to pass, and deals with things like who has the right of way, proper passing, horn signals and so forth, all in the name of preventing collisions on the waterways. Not a lot different than driver training, there is no road test either, its all written, thats why you need a minimum of 360 days on the water to qualify. Federal water requirements are much different than the states, and always have been, just not really enforced in these areas. Getting a license doesn't cost that much compared to other business costs, going to the classes is what gets spendy. A $15 book for license prep, a lot of study, and paying attention to the USCG regs to get everything in order, plus about $300 for the test has gotten quite a few captains their license.

[sandmannd]

Where do you get the the class for $300? I looked into it. It's $250 for your TWIP card, which you have to have before class. Then it's $750 for the class and test. Grant it a grand is not a lot of money but I still belive a license for 6 passengers is over kill for 95% of guides as most will take out two to three clients at the most.

[sandmannd]

I don't know if the "lack of understanding" part was directed at me. But I have read the rules and there is a tonage. This lices is good for "up to a 100 ton vessel". Like I said overkill!!

I got the information below at http://www.tedgephart.com/ and the prices for the classes are at http://www.tedgephart.com/price%20list%201.pdf

What is the OUPV License?
The USCG Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels (OUPV/Captain's) License allows the holder to carry up to six paying passengers on uninspected vessels up to 100 gross tons (about 75-90 feet long). These are usually smaller vessels that normally engage in charter fishing, SCUBA diving, or tour cruises. As such, these vessels are limited to six paying passengers plus crew-hence the term "Six-Pack." The OUPV License is issued in three forms:

OUPV Inland License: The OUPV Inland license is restricted to operation shoreward of the boundary line, excluding the Great Lakes. This license is valid on uninspected vessels to 100 gross tons.

This license requires at least 360 days of documented experience in the operation of vessels, with 90 of the 360 days occurring in the last three years. Experience gained prior to 15 years of age may not be counted.
The OUPV Inland License can be upgraded to an OUPV Near Coastal License once 90 days experience seaward of the boundary line has been achieved.

OUPV Great Lakes & Inland: 360 total with at least 90 days service on the Great Lakes.

OUPV Near Coastal: This license is valid on vessels up to 100 gross tons and out to 100 nautical miles.

The OUPV Near Coastal License also requires at least 360 days of documented experience in the operation of vessels, 90 of which must be gained seaward of the boundary line. Ninety of the 360 days must be in the last three years. Experience gained prior to the age of 15 will not be counted.

Note: Sea Service experience can be counted on your own vessel. A Sea Service Form and proof of ownership are required. Experience on other people's vessels can also be counted. In this instance, to verify experience claimed and vessel details, a completed Sea Service Form with the owner's signature must accompany the application.

Additional Requirements Include:

Age 18 or over
Physical, drug test and eye exam
CPR/First Aid training
Completion of Mariners School USCG-approved OUPV class, OR
Completion of the USCG exam at a USCG regional facility
 
No testing at the USCG Regional Exam Centers is necessary. All testing is done at our facilities.
 
Simply submit, within one year, the original certificate along with your application package and applicable fees to the USCG Regional Exam Center. Upon their approval of your package, they will send you your original License.

[boats]

I don't think you can get a class for $300, I'm saying you can obtain the license without the class, study and take the test from a USCG REC. OPUV is the lowest form of license, wheres the overkill? Is it overkill that you need the same driver license for a one ton truck/fifth wheel and boat combination just to ride a moped? This is just the way things are. I mentioned an 18' foot boat, do you realize the average one hundred ton vessel is going to be in the 80-90 foot range, somehow I doubt anyone will be trailering that to the river. Tonnage will never come into play. My TWIC card was $135, that was two years ago, I recently had an employee get one and the prices hadn't changed. I can't disagree with anyone on that card, even the Coast Guard feels its an absolute waste and advised against it, but I got it when it became available, because thats the law.
Bottom line is people and businesses are shut down or fined all the time for not complying with various regulations, these particular regulations have been around longer than most guides. If it is truly a business venture and not just a hobby/endevour/tax shelter or whatever, the cost of complying with these regs won't keep anyone from continuing or starting a business.

[sandmannd]

Reading the regs you "need" to have the hours of class time in so you can't just take the test. I agree tonnage won't come into play, that's why this is over kill. I don't think you would take more than three in your 18' boat plus yourself. Again, a license for 6 and "UP TO a 100 ton boat" is overkill for guides. Do a smaller license for a typical guide for up to a 21' boat and 3 clients.

[boats]

I can't find anything on the National Maritime Center that says that classroom hours are required, just verifiable seatime for experience. That has always been the requirement. These schools may say differently, but that is how they get paid. There are approved courses, which are the schools/classes so often mentioned that are allowed by the CG to administer the test in lieu of the REC, (I have sent some employees through them). You can still be approved to take the test from the CG at the REC if you have everything in order. Having everything in order is very important, only the USCG decides who gets a license, regardless of how many classes you have taken, tests passed, money spent, whatever. These schools will have no problem taking your payment, teaching you a class, making sure you pass the test. Too often people then find out that something in the backround check, medical, driving record, DUI, (all the things the USCG evaluates in the application) prevents them from being licensed. Be sure that your application has been submitted and approved by the USCG BEFORE enrolling in any class.
As far as the overkill thing goes, do I think a license should be required to run a little skiff around fishing? No, I don't, but thats my opinion, a whole lot different than the law. If you can get the Coast Guard to believe its overkill and change age old requirements and add an entire new classification or level of licensing so a few dozen people in Minnesota can charge people to go fishing, then I will hire you on the spot to get the USCG regs erased for me too.

[sandmannd]

Sounds like we agree on the opinnion thing boats. I agree if you want to guide, get the license and guide. In my eyes it will always be overkill to have all that. To me those big cruisers on the river cause more problems than ANY of the guides, licensed or not. I just do it part time for the fun of getting folks out, was never going to be my full time gig. So it's not worth it for me.

[The General]

Wow the more I read about this thing the more I would be a Fawkinnae hat salesman with free fishing. 

So let me just make sure I have it straight.  For a long time if you were a fishing guide on these bodies of water one was never bothered even though this has been a law for a long time.  Now all of the sudden someone wants to nail everyone who has been breaking a law that was never enforced for years? 

[sandmannd]

Yep, always been a law but wasn't really enforced. Take Griz for an example, fished it for 40 years with none of this. Now this year they decided to crack down.

I have heard folks say that it's a good thing guides need to be licensed for safety. I won't argue that but then why don't guides ahve to be licensed for the entire state? Just a few bodies of water because they are federal. Guide a lake and you need nothing.

[Lee Borgersen]

I'm no expert on any of this CG stuff, but I do know that guides on the Chain Of Lakes in northern IL have to be CG licensed (captain license) to guide legally. I believe this is also a fact on Lake Winnebago in WI. They are both bodies of water that connect to the Mississippi River some how thru an intricate maze of rivers and locks. Therefore the Mississippi River connects to the ocean thus enter the coastguard jurisdiction.

[sandmannd]

It has to do with "international waters" and "federal waters". The Sippi and Croix are "federal Waters" becausee they are border waters. Yet, I don't believe you need the same to guide the Red River. Not exactly sure what mandates which bodies of water but I don't think it's real consistant.

[boats]

Whoa, has nothing to do with international waters, international waters deal with international rules, lines of demarcation, etc. Border waters don't have any bearing either, inland waters and western rivers are what the CG refers to them as. Federally controlled navigable waters, I don't have a list of them all as I don't run anything smaller than the Great Lakes.

For $20, this site, www.navrules.com will let you download the rules, study and get to know these and you've got the toughest part of the CG test licked, buy a copy of Chapman piloting and seamanship, read it, study it, learn it cover to cover and you have everything a school will teach you and a lot more for a lot less and on your own schedule.

[fubar]

Its  not that hard or that big of a deal, i got my liscense 3 years ago as soon as i turned 18. Just study hornes and boueys and you will have no problems.