To Owners of Pointers.......??

[Mayfly]

If you have a pointer I have a question for you.

When hunting pheasants and your dog goes on point what do you expect of her/him.

If the bird moves should your dog move? How do you want your dog to relocate on that point?

Is creeping bad?

Do you want your dog to get that bird up (on command) or do you attempt to get the dog up?

What is expected in field trial dogs?

Do you agree that a great field trial dog is not as good in the field really hunting as a great hunting dog?

[jigglestick]

I am not a field trialer, and I dont care what others think.
my old pointer was purely instinctive when afield. I trained her not. other than obedience that is.
she followed hand signals willingly, sometimes not so willingly, but allways.
when she winded a bird I could tell if it was a hot scent or old. I could also tell if the bird was there moments ago but gone now.
I could tell if the bird was close, and I could tell if the bird was right there!
I swear I could also tell if it was a rooster by the way she locked up. she was much more intense with roosters.
she would lock up on the bird and not move unless the bird did.
 she would give me time to get into position or get someone else into position. then I could command her to flush the bird and she would and the bird would come out.
she would allways find the downed bird unless it ran and she lost the scent (rare)
she woudlnt allways bring it to me, but some times she would. most important to me was that she would find them. I could get to the bird.
we worked together as a team. man and beast.
it was a cool relationship....... and now it is time to put her down. I am completely bummed out. so are my kids. she is 13 1/2 years old and has lived a full life, but her fire is gone and she is having a hard time getting around some days. aspirin helps her alot.
I couldn't have asked for more.
if I could clone her and have her over again well, do I realy need to say it?

[vickieschessies]

jiggle my thought are with you when you have to walk down that road. It is such a tough one. Remember the great memories you shared with her.

As far as what I expect. A point a flush and a retrieve. Some people only want a steady point. You must decide for yourself what you are looking for in your dog. As for a trialer, you can go to their websites and find the rule like the NAVHDA

[Mayfly]

I know what I want.....I have just been in disagreement with someone about some things and I wanted more opinions to see what others thought.

[jigglestick]

that's just it mayfly, it's what you want out of your dog. not what others say you should want out of your dog.
you get these know it all field trialer types who expect every dog they hunt around to be "proffesionally trained".
one thing you should expect out of you dog, is that when hunting with others, it will not bust in on another dogs point. this will only breed resentment among fellow hunters and piss people off in general.
make sure you dog will come when called.
other than that as long as your dog isn't trying to mount every dog in the field, or getting into fights with other dogs.
then just go hunting and who care what the others think as long as it works for you and your pooch.

[gspman]

I expect the dog to hold point if the bird is sitting tight.? If the bird is running I expect the dog to relocate or start trailing the bird.? If the bird stays put I expect the dog to remain pointing while I flush.? I do not want the dog helping me flush the bird as that will start down the road to having bad habits.

Creeping isn't bad generally.? If the dog is creeping on the moving pheasant that's fine with me as long as the dog doesn't flush the bird.? Sooner or later the dog needs to stop the creeping and establish a point.

I don't want my dog flushing birds period.? The dog will do the pointing.? ?I will do the flushing.

A trial dog is expected to do things differently and those things are not always conducive to success on wild pheasants.? But it really depends on what your definition of success is.? A trial dog must point at first scent.? It needs to look good on point too.? It needs to remain on point until it's handler releases it.? It must not relocate on it's own.? It must stop to any flush while hunting.? It must be steady to wing, shot, and fall.? It cannot move until it's handler releases it.? It must honor it's bracemates point when the opportunity arises.? It must retrieve to hand.? It must handle kindly.

I don't agree that a great trial dog cannot be as good as a great hunting dog.? ?That doesn't mean it will be better either.? They just do things differently.? There are many many trial dogs that are death on pheasants.? There are also many many trial dogs that are terrible on pheasants.? The same is true for good old hunting dogs.? Some are good and some stink.? Most of the truly great trial dogs are hunted on wild birds.? Wild birds make a bird dog.? Most are also hunted on multiple wild bird species.? They need to learn how to find and hold wild birds.? They need to learn where to look for them.? If they don't hunt the cover in a trial like they should then they won't place.

Each person has different expectations for their dogs and their hunting experience.? All some care about is the body count and getting a limit.? Others care about the dog doing it's job just so.? Others are into guns and loads.? Others have different outlooks.? There is no right answer and one person's great hunting dog can be another person's pig.? Everyone is different.? That's what makes the world go around.

As for me, my dog is just a hunting dog.? But she is out of some of the greatest field trial dogs in the history of the shorthair breed.? She has 45 field champions in the first 5 generations of her pedigree with 5 or 6 national field champions in there for good measure.? She isn't steady to wing and shot.? She doesn't stop to flush.? She self relocates, creeps and occasionally loses her cool.? She's not a good retriever but is a good downed bird finder be it crippled or dead.? She could easily be trained to do all that stuff but it's hard to keep them fully broke and frankly I'm happy with what she does now.? She has a lot of drive and is probably more dog than the average Joe would be comfortable with.? She points with style and intensity that you don't normally see in gsp's.? The bottom line is she's my dog and I think she's great and she gets better each time out.? The sad thing is I can see what she could be if I had the time and $$$ to actually train her and help her realize her full potential.? It's scary how good she could be.

gspman

[get the net]

GSPman, that is one solid post on what to expect out your dog.? I appreciate your honesty and agree with you completely.? If your dog does what YOU want it to and you can see steady improvement over the course of a season or from hunt to hunt what more can you ask.? Time and $$ do limit most of us from truly seeing the potential in most of our dogs.? My dog still has a hard time slowing down on a running rooster in open cover.? Happened tonight as a matter of fact.? Edge of a chisle plowed bean field, dog gets birdy, gets out on the edge, I know its a rooster, been here before, know the way the dog is moving the trail is getting hotter and hotter, can see the dog, know he is getting out to the edge of my gunning range, quick left turn back into the grass, cackle cackle, big mature bird flys away without a shot fired.? Dog comes back with that "why didn't ya shoot boss", look on his face.? I can't blame the dog, he is a flusher and I have not worked with him on slowing down in that situation.? Later he worked a rooster in a line of thick willows for about 5-6 minutes, very good dog work on his part, I repositioned a couple of times and we pinned him in, Duey put the bird in the air with a little nip of the tail feathers for good measure as he went airborne and a load of # 2 steel stopped him dead in the air. A retrieve to hand, a great end to the late afternoon.? ?

[Spinach]

I expect my dog to only be as good as the training and conditioning I give her. I want her to stay in my range (40 yards)  locate birds and retrieve them back to me. I could care less how stylish her point is and how perfect the retrieve is.


I do not allow her to flush any birds, I want her to pin the bird down and when I feel it is time, I go in and flush the bird. If she feels it is necessary to re-position herself or to creep, I have total confidence that she is doing what is necessary.

If I'm hunting with another dog, I expect her to "back" the other dog and to back off if the other dog is on a retrieve.

If I were to rate my dog in a few categories.  Point, retrieve, tracking, and locating downed birds, I would have to say, she locates and points very well, she has natural style. Her retrieving could use some work, she always gets the bird back to me, but sometimes gets distracted and has to reposition the bird in her mouth, sometimes it is to hand and others, she drops it at my feet. She is excellent at tracking a running bird.

I am most proud of her ability to find a downed bird, I would bet money that if she doesn't find it, it's not there anymore. A couple of years ago, we really clicked together at the game farm, that day I learned how to read her thoughts, 3 other dogs went in to locate a downed bird, after about 5 minutes, the others asked me to get my dog in and for her to take a look. she went in and was running in circles, after a minute or 2 I called her off and started to walk away, she wouldn't come out of the area and kept her nose to the ground and kept working, I thought to myself (trust the dog) she kept going back to the same spot, I told the group that the bird was buried in that woodpile, after a few minutes of digging, we saw the bird move again, sure enough there was a Rooster hiding in the thickest woodpile you could imagine, we ended up digging it out by hand. After that day, I knew whenever we had a downed bird that we were having trouble with, I would walk away and see if the dog would follow me or not, if she followed me out, there was no bird, if she stayed in and kept looking, we would go back in and take the time to find the bird.

Just like GSPman said earlier, it would be great to be able to see the dogs full potential, I just dont have the money or time to put into the training necessary. I'm very happy with her now.

[bambambiggero]

I believe you have
1. High School Grads
2. College Grads
3. Dr.'s
It just depends on what catagory you want your dog to fall into.
It is all about the experience in the field and being able to get out with the dogs and friends/family! 
That's what counts!!

[Bruno24]

GSPMAN~

How do I get my GSP to stop bumping birds and how do I stop him from breaking point.  Sometimes he wants to beat me to the bird as I try to flush and bum rushes the spot.  It can be frustrating.

Thanks,

Bruno24

[gspman]

Bruno24,
If your dog is breaking point and going in to flush the bird you need to steady him up.  For starters DO NOT shoot a bird your dog flushes.  This is a toughy when you are hunting but if you don't do this your dog will likely not change it's behavior.  That will reward him for flushing.  Second, don't hunt your dog on a game farm until he's steady.  It's way too easy for a dog to catch pen raised birds which will also encourage breaking point.  If your dog knows it's supposed to point and deliberately takes out a bird when hunting you should try to get your hands on the dog and bring it to the spot where it flushed the bird and whoa it and make it stand there and give it a verbal chewing out.

There are many ways to steady your dog.  Most work best if you have a helper with you.  I'll give a couple of ways to do it.  Also before we go further please note that I am not an expert dog trainer so take this info for what it is.  You'll also need birds.  There's no other way to do this but with birds.  Pigeons work just fine and I personally think they work great for this type of training because they don't fly a little ways and then land on the ground for your dog to catch them.   What you need to do is get your dog to stop at first scent and then stay there.  Bring the dog in on a 25' checkcord going across the wind.  Note: ALWAYS keep a rope on your dog when doing this kind of training.  You need to be able to control the dog and stop it if it breaks point.  When it scents the bird it should point.  If it doesn't point or the dog moves in then you need to pick it up and put it back where it first scented the bird.  Make it stand there for awhile too.  Maybe 30 seconds to a minute.  As it gets used to this you can extend the time.  Then go in to flush while your partner holds the rope.  Don't walk past your dog while going in to flush.  Circle around in front and go in from the side.  Some dogs think walking past right next to them is an invite for them to come with too.  This could take alot of repetition but eventually your dog should stand and let you flush without moving and without your partner having to correct the dog.  When your dog does it all right then praise the heck out of it and toss something for it to retrieve as a rewards.  Do not praise the dog until it does it right.  If it screws up just place the dog where it picked up scent and keep your mouth shut.  Do this 3-4 times each training session.  If the dog happens to do it right the first time during a training session then quit right there and praise the dog and go home.

Another way is to use bird launchers.  Remote controlled launchers work best but manual ones work too.  Basically it's the same drill.  Bring the dog in on a rope and when it scents the bird it should stop and point.  If it moves at all (even one paw) then you pop the bird.  Eventually the dog will learn that if it stops, then the bird won't fly away.  When it get's good at that then start going in to flush.  If the dog moves, pop the bird.  Praise the dog when it does it right and give it a retrieve for a reward and say nothing when it does it wrong.

Another way is to take it to a place that has ALOT of wild birds and let it bump and chase until it figures out on it's own that it can't catch them.  Eventually the light bulb will go on and the dog will point and stay pointing.  That's how I did my first dog and it works but can be very frustrating.  My dog as a pup busted about 50 birds in one day before it started  flash pointing at the end of the day.  The next day she took out about a dozen more before she started pointing staunchly.  After that she never moved when I was in front of her kicking around.

Basically the method is to teach the dog that if it moves the bird flies away and the dog gets no reward.  But if the dog points and stays standing until you flush then it gets a reward.  Sometimes that's a bird to retrieve and other times it's verbal praise by you.

If your dog has a soft temperament you may wish to consult with a pro trainer and tell them what you are planning to do.  They can help determine if you have a good plan and also give you some pointers.