Baiting dilemma.

[Randy Kaar]

good post OJ!

randy

[Cody Gruchow]

ok lets see here....DE post to ask your opinions and some people start pointing fingers at him for shooting 2 bucks with a group of 8 people with 8 buck tags. do these people know how to do basic math? then someone brings up that why was he tresspassing? maybe he was tracking a wounded deer that jumped over the fence or crossed the property line(assuming there is a fence) you or me will never know. how about you stick to the question at hand..


now DE i do beleive now that you know that its there you do have a obligation to atleast warn the landowner...dont even go to the brother in law, just straight to the owner.  you know its there and you can get tagged for it if they find out you knew it was there, but you can always say you had no idea. hate to see that happen....im sure the last thing you want to start is a fued between you and the neighboor, so let him know and give him a certain time limit to remove the corn or atleast the cobs, not much more you can do for the stuff thats scattered around.

[deadeye]

Dennis,Cody,Dakids,all,
Dennis and Cody pretty much got it right.  I don't really want to get the CO's involved, I just want them to stop baiting.  I know some people suggest "throwing the book" at them or hitting them with all you got, but after all they are my neighbors.
I hope that they would contact me first if I was doing something that annoyed them.   I suspose I could put up a stand 10 feet from his and talk to him while hunting. 
For clarification, there are no fences, no no tresspassing signs and I have never ask permission to walk on this land.  On the same note, due to swamps and beaver ponds, these guys do tresspass on another farmers land (without permission) to reach this area.  I'm pretty sure if I ask the farmer to tell them to stop crossing his land he would do so.  As you can see I pretty much hold all the cards here.     I just want them to realize this and stop baiting without me making any susposed "threats".
At any rate, I didn't see anyone there yesterday.  Last night I called the land owners brother in law (I couldn't find a phone number for the owner).  I didn't get to talk to the guy but did speak with his wife.  When I told her why I was calling, her first comment was, "how do you know it is his bait?"  When I started to explain why I thought it was his bait, he said "you have to talk to him" and hung up on me.   
I must admit I was a little ticked off but after sleeping on it, I still intend to persue it myself.   

[Go Big Red!]

Good luck in your pursuit of this and keep us posted with the end result.

[backwoods]

Deadeye: herein lies the reality of it.  You say, after all, they are your neighbors. They are your law breaking neighbors, that, as long as you turn your head and ignore their activities, will get along with you. The wifes response is classic of that of a woman that is used to defending her husbands actions, and smells of bad attitude, all the way over here.

You can rationalize not turning them in any way you want, but the bottom line is, you are dealing with crooks, and crooks dont like it when you tell them they are crooks.   Its why I would let the CO handle it, its their job and it keeps you out of it.  Too late now.

[CampYJewel]

Maybe it's her bait????  She freeked because she was caught and did not know what to do so she hung up.   

I think you did the right thing in calling.  If it's not his well then maybe he will tell you whos it is and you can then call the correct person.

[deadeye]

I just finished a one hour conversation with the land owners brother.  I called him because he owns land next to the land in question.  He also is aware of the stand and food plot but had not gone to the area during the hunting season.  We disussed land issues, hunting issues, neighbor issues, food plots, and a lot more.  He agrees with me that no one should be putting out bait and he will talk to his brother and let him know my concerns.  For now I will consider this a closed issue.  I will however, bring it up the the land owner and or his brother in law the next time we meet.

backwoods,
Yes they are my neighbors and I will treat them as such.  Just courious, what would you do if you encounter the following situations.
1. You see your neighbors has an expired license tab.  Do you call the police and have them come and ticket him or do you mention you noticed it to the neighbor.  (Remember he is a criminal)
2. You see the neighbors son blow the stop sign at the end of the street.  Now what, another call to the police to report a criminal.
4. You stop at the neighbors propery and notice he has a loaded gun in the back of his pickup. Violators call the CO.
3. Neighbor re-roofs the house without a permit.  

I know these may not be exactly apples and oranges but it does make you think about when and how to pick your battles.  It may be black and white if a law was violated, however, how to react to it can have many shades of gray.  I usually choose confront the person, explain the issue and give them every option to explain their side and make the right decision (as suggested by me) on what to do.  

On a side note, as a result of taking this approach, I may get a great deal on a trailer house that I could move onto my property.
 
  

[beeker]

your doing the right thing.  people shouldn't be so afraid that they can't point out the issues to a neighbor.

 

[backwoods]

Deadeye.  Ok.  you asked for input, I offered.  We disagree on how to handle but thats ok.  I forget that times are changing and I am old school.  When I grew up, wrong was wrong and it was ok to have people arrested for breaking the law.

Beeker: its not about being afraid, its about it being against the law and no longer up to me to judge if its punishable.  Its about letting the DNR do their work and stepping aside.   I dont like letting criminals walk.  Anyone that baits, IS a criminal.  Its not a gray area to me.

[beeker]

the CO's in this state are spread out thin. and not to mention that a CO has the power of discretion too.. so it's not to say a ticket would ever come from it anyways. theirs probably more power in talking to the guy man to man, then he's being called out by a peer, a neighbor, a hunter.. and is being told that there is a higher standard around there.

[Moving2thecountry]

I used to think like the die for his country patriot.  I called the police one night on my neighbor after he was partying on his deck with friends at 3 in the morning.  He had woken me up a couple of times, and I even turned the lights on in the back to peer out my window at him.  So I called the police--he was a law breaker, disturbing the peace. 

The police came, and told him to keep it down.

But it took awhile to get back on talking terms with the neighbor, even though he only got a warning.

I should have gotten dressed and went out to talk to him instead.  Though he has been gracious, he was a little ticked.  If he were a worse neighbor, he could have damaged my property undetected for years thereafter.

I think you did the right thing in talking with the neighbor. [Replaced with:  This call the authorities on your neighbors without first talking to them  nonesense doesn't make much sense to me.]   None of my four grandparents would call the police on the neighbor without first talking to them.  You did the right thing in talking man to man with your neighbor.

[backwoods]

I can tell you first hand, moving2thecountry, obviously you trying to start a war, and if you keep it up, its gonna get REALLY ugly.  I have been patient with you, but when you start mocking me and telling me how I really think, vs what I said...I am about to tell you how life really works.  You want to mock someone, be a real man and go down to the local bikers bar and mouth off.

The first rule of forums is never create personal attacks.

[Outdoors Junkie]

The first rule of forums is never create personal attacks.

We don't want personal attacks on MNO.  Backwoods, I appreciate that you chose not to sling mud back.

Everyone has a right to their own opinion.  Let's be respectful even if your opinion is the complete opposite of another person.  We all enjoy a good debate!  Please refrain from mud slinging and personal attacks.   

[Moving2thecountry]

Talk is cheap, but if you want to spew nonsensical ideas, don't fall back to threats if you cant defend them intellectually.

(PS.  Making threats is not choosing the high road).

[22lex]

 

DE I believe you made the right decision based on all of your posts. Good luck with the situation! Way to start up a good thread that adresses issues that everyone can relate to.

Looking forward to more replies that have nothing to do with what you were trying to share with us.

[backwoods]

22Lex: I agree, these are good issues to discuss.  I wont lie, I am an old hunter compared to most on the site, in my 50s and I tend to have different viewpoints and perspectives.   It doesnt hurt me to read and see how others would handle it, never know, might even change an old dogs spots.   

Deadeye: hope it all works out and I see your perspectives, even though it may have seemed like I didnt.  Hang in there, it will all work out.

[Go Big Red!]

Backwoods-

I am a younger hunter and I like to hear of the old ways.  I appreciate your points of view and it allows me to learn from the past so I can hopefully improve upon the future.

For my personal knowledge, why is baiting so wrong in your perspective?  I have baited before in WI for the purpose of deer hunting. I don't feel that makes me a criminal. 

Have I ever shot a deer coming in to feed?  No.  Have I shot deer within the area of the bait pile?  Yes.  Does it help/improve hunting?  Not sure.

Please share you thoughts.  Thanks!

[backwoods]

Go Big Red:  good point.  I probably have shot deer coming in to feed, just never over food that I put there for the purpose of luring them under my stand so I could get a shot.

Heres my perspective:  I grew up hunting the old way...stand on a stump or stand on an oak tree branch, and never spent a cent on fancy duds or guns.  We hunted for food and food alone, and even back in the 60s when deer were scarce, we put food on the meat pole.  I didn't see much point to the semi-automatic guns or silliness of a $1000 deerstand, when 3 green treat boards and a 3/4" piece of plywood put meat in my freezer.

To me, baiting is a less sportsmanlike method of hunting...it takes less skill, and thats what I was always taught.  A sportsman takes a clean shot, a sportsman never lets his wounded game go untracked, and a sportsman hunts ethically.  To me, what is ethical and to others, it's going to vary...based on what you know and what you have been taught.  For years I took 3 shells into the woods with me and rarely came back with less than 2.  I learned that throwing up a wall of lead isn't the secret to getting game, its all about hitting what you shoot at.

Am I right?  Not necessarily, and very possibly no, in other peoples minds.  But did it work and work well for me?  you bet.

[deadeye]

backwoods,
You must have been hunting with me back in the 60's.  I also climbed many oak trees just to stand or sit on a branch.  White oaks were the best because the limbs grew straight out from the trunk.  Today, mostly because it's my property, I have a number of ladder stands scattered about but most perminant stands are constructed in a tree using treated lumber for the platform and rails.  We usually staple on some camo burlap during the season.  Although we do have food plots, I can think of only a couple deer that were shot in them.  These were by young kids getting their first deer.  Plots are used mainly feed and observe what deer are in the area.  I don't much care if a guy takes 3 or 30 shells with him, just take a good shot and hit the deer in the vitals.  It pretty much wrecks the day when you have to go searching for a wounded deer.  Doesn't do the deer any favors either.  By the way, I think you are 100% right about being able to hit what you are shooting at.

[Go Big Red!]

Backwoods-

Thanks for your insight.

I had been taught the same hunting standards that you were.  Times have change, but the principles of ethical hunting hopefully are not.

I now hunt the old way, but with new technology.  I now sit on a folding stool as people would destroy my homemade wooden stand just like yours.  I hunt with older duds, but have updated with newer wool bibs and will get a new coat as my current one is fading.  Safety first.  Gun wise, a Savage bolt action 30.06 scoped.  Still trying to acquire the 3 Winchester Model 94 30-30's from my dad and uncles that their father and uncles once used waaaaay back when.

As for baiting, I used to but now I don't.  Why?  Not sure, but I could care less.  And for hitting what you shoot at, I need more practice.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[backwoods]

Red: good job on moving on to hunting in what you and I see as a more ethical way.  I have to give you a round of applause in that most people rarely go back to doing things the harder way, once they find an easier way. (in this case, baiting)  Good job on keeping focused on the priorities and good job on knowing right from wrong.  We agree on everything you wrote.

Deadeye: yessir...i was hunting back then and you and I agree too.  All I want is for the 4 wheeler generation to realize that theres more to a grouse hunt than 500cc of 4wd...and that getting a deer isn't just about the rack.  Thats just the bonus.  I get defensive about the ethics of hunting when it starts to become a "kill all you can" game and the pure pleasure of being out there is lost sight of.  I say this because to me, baiting slides a hunter out of the ethics range and into the "kill all you can" bracket.  I loved the thrill of the hunt and knowing that when I pulled the trigger, I earned that shot.

[stevejedlenski]

by the way deadeye, you will not be liable for someone baiting on adjoining property, unless you have been involved in it. even if you know about it you wont be liable. i wouldnt say that co's dont look at these sites, and i say good decision on your part about giving your neighbor a chance to clean up his act before going to authorities.
however if it continues i would be sure to tell the acting co about this previous encounter.

[HUNTER2]

I'm suprised that we can hunt over a food plot. I have had many deer in my food plot when I was bow hunting. I was waiting for the big one and he never showed during shooting hours. He met his demise when he decided to chase the does around. It's a good thing they don't have hunting season out of the rut because there would be some monster bucks running around. I suppose they let us hunt over a plot is because it still benifits a lot of deer, especially in the winter.

[Go Big Red!]

Backwoods-

I have always tried to hunt as ethically as possible.  Just taught that way.

I also don't think that you and I have gone back to hunting the old, harder way.  I believe we are carrying on traditions set-forth by our fathers, grandfathers, great grandfathers, etc.   I hunt because I enjoy it and I love being out "there".  And it's FUN the way I hunt.  I can't see myself changing that.  I wouldn't say the way we hunt is harder, it just means that more to us.

Thanks for the input.

And who shoots grouse from an ATV?  Exercise never killed anyone... at least no one I know.

[Mayfly]

Ethic, Morals, Right, Wrong. The new way and the old way.....everyone has their opinion.

Sorry to high-jack this post any further but I have to say a few things. Everyone thinks that they do things the right way and the moral way and the ethical way. People say that food plots are cheating and that hunting over bait is unethical. We could go on all day about that.

What really is getting to me is that some are saying that hunting the "old way" by just going out in the woods with whatever gun they can afford and chasing the game without any aids is the highest of all forms of hunting but I beg to disagree. Lets talk about skill. What skill does that take?? Is being skillful stupid or is it the smart way to hunt? Is my way better than yours or is yours better than mine.

This has nothing to do with anyone specifically on this forum or in this thread. All this has done is got me thinking...

I have been hunting my "big boy" for 3 seasons. I have hunted so many hours that my family does not even know what I look like, I have put trail cams on every trail trying to find a ryhme or reason to his movements. I have see him once a week after dark if I am lucky and I have seen him twice during the day. I scout all year long. I look for sheds and I look for his bed. After two years I think I have found it. The third season I am getting closer at least I think and the rut is heating up. I finally see him at daybreak 100yds out using an area where I have seen deer moving before. The next day I set up and nothing..... A week goes by and i'm hunting the area hard. I do my best to play the wind and keep my scent to a minimum. Every time I go out I try a little scent, do a little rattling and calling but nothing. Finally on November 3rd my luck changes. I see a deer moving in the distance, man his body is big! He is coming right for me and then he turns. I rattle and grunt a little and he is coming my way again. This is it....the last day before rifle opener and I am going to score on my big one!!! And then he scents me! Game over......be back in two weeks....

The next day rifle opener opens and farmer joe down the block has been hunting opener weekend ever since he was born. As a matter of fact he has been using the same stool, wool over-alls and winchester 30-30 since he was 22. He walks out onto the land and finds his favorite spot. As the sun begins to rise he catches movement about 125yds out and it is a monster buck walking behind a doe. He raises the rifle, gets him in the cross hairs and pulls the trigger. Game Over. He scores 187 making the B&C and gets a spot above farmer joes fire place.


 

 

[backwoods]

And I say good for farmer Brown.  He did it the tried and true way and outsmarted everyone else, and it didnt take anything fancy to outsmart everyone else, it just took...experience.  Experience = skill.

I guess whatever anyone wants to do is fine but in all reality, the only thing I care about is how the air smells out there, how the sun blazes coming up and boils going down, the smell when you walk into a patch of oaks, a patch of spruce, a patch of cedar,  watching the chickadee as she watches me, trying to figure out why the red squirrels always get so mad and chatter at me, seeing a new bird species I haven't seen, the sound of a Pileated Woodpecker as it flies thru the morning fog, stepping into the cool evening air around a swamp as you pick your spot and stand...nothing else matters to me.

I didnt take 3 shells out because I was a superior shooter in the beginning, its all dad would give me.   He told me, and I quote, "if you can't hit em with 3 shells, you got no business hunting."  I still take stock in that philosophy and I chuckle inwardly at the hunters that show up with their Weatherby 300 magnums and Browning automatics or SKS with clips.  They laugh and joke about how nothings safe in the woods...and they are right...but mostly other hunters are the ones in danger.

[Go Big Red!]

Tim, Backwoods, Steve, Deadeye-

Call it what we will.  This could go on forever, but Tim summed it up well, "Ethic, Morals, Right, Wrong. The new way and the old way.....everyone".  All of us need to teach those things to new hunters and to the next generation of hunters.

I hunt the way I was taught and so does everyone else right or wrong; please pass that on to next group of hunters who will some day take my spot in the woods...

[deadeye]

backwoods said "I guess whatever anyone wants to do is fine but in all reality, the only thing I care about is how the air smells out there, how the sun blazes coming up and boils going down, the smell when you walk into a patch of oaks, a patch of spruce, a patch of cedar,  watching the chickadee as she watches me, trying to figure out why the red squirrels always get so mad and chatter at me, seeing a new bird species I haven't seen, the sound of a Pileated Woodpecker as it flies thru the morning fog, stepping into the cool evening air around a swamp as you pick your spot and stand...nothing else matters to me."

Perfect.  And if a deer or two happen to pass by so much the better. 

I don't know if I would want to go back to all of the "old" ways of hunting.  Here are a few of the new things I really enjoy and accept.  Clothing - I remember plastic bread sacks over socks in my leather shoes stuck in 4 buckle boots.  This was fine as long as you didn't walk much or it was above 40 degrees.  I had long underwear and jeans.  Jeans usually were soaked up and frozen to the knees.  My toes and fingers just curled up thinking about it.    
Optics - Binos to check deer for antlers.  We try not to shoot small bucks but it can be hard to see spikes or forks on a deer off in the distance.  Scope - Nothing better for making a well placed shot. (ok, some hunters are as skilled with open sites as with a scope, but not me).  Power equipment - Yes I know the dreaded ATV.  I got to admit I don't miss dragging a deer for 3/4 of a mile across a snow filled half frozen swamp.  Also, we use them to pull a brush mower used to keep the trails clear.  And lastly here is one that always stirs things up a little, QDM.  The old way was if you saw a buck, any buck, you better darn well shoot it.  If you had a coveted doe permit you were in heaven.  Now, by practicing our form of QDM, we can expect to get, or at least see some very nice bucks. 
By the way, I'm still using the same Remington .270 bolt that I borrowed from my father in law back in the early 1970's.  I wonder if he want it back? 
 

[Mayfly]

Tim, Backwoods, Steve, Deadeye-

Call it what we will.  This could go on forever, but Tim summed it up well, "Ethic, Morals, Right, Wrong. The new way and the old way.....everyone".  All of us need to teach those things to new hunters and to the next generation of hunters.

I hunt the way I was taught and so does everyone else right or wrong; please pass that on to next group of hunters who will some day take my spot in the woods...

You are right. This could go on forever and I kinda hope it does. The only reason I signed on this morning was to check this thread and I got to read another post by you and another great post by deadeye...

 

[backwoods]

I am getting your message loud and clear Tim.  We just don't agree on things and thats fine.

Deadeye:  oh, I remember the cold feet and fingers and it isn't romantic.  Its not that life was better then, it's not that my way is the best way, but I just can't respect a man that spends $5000 on an ATV, $300 on a trail cam, $800 on a rifle, $300 on a scope, $500 on clothes, $50 on nonscent soap, $50 on fake rattling antlers, $50 on a padded rifle sock, $300 on boots, $48 on high power magnum shells, $44 on hunting gloves, $250 on hunting glasses by Orvis, and on and on, and somehow thinks they have attained the status of hunter...when in fact, I see these same people, driving home year after year with an empty trailer.

Add to that, the same guy comes roaring down the grouse hunting path I am on, on his ATV...or during deer season, and wonders why I dont wave hi to him as he flies past.

If this guy, which is almost anyone in todays world, had spent maybe 5 hours in the woods, studying their surroundings, picking out sign, reading the branches, leaves, beds, etc...he would have been far better off, but so many of these guys think they can purchase expertise in the form of a semi automatic or that an ATV will make them a better hunter.

I say pfffft.  Get off your lazy asses and walk.

And yes, I realize my posts are controversial.  I am fine with that...I realize that also that the one thing I cherish about the woods is the serenity and being alone out there, and that makes me an independent person, both in here, and out there.  I dont expect people to like what I say, and in fact, its pretty obvious that it riles some.  Maybe it will make them look at their priorities.