Baiting dilemma.

[beeker]

backwoods.. just out of curiosity then. what do you expect a new "hunter" to do? how does one meet your standard of "hunter" now days? do they go buy an old 3030? wait for that right garage sale for the old wool bibs? I guess I don't follow your logic on what qualifies.  just because I didn't stand on a branch in the old day doesn't make my passion for the woods any less then yours. I do try to upgrade some of my equipment when I have the money.. I don't see how suffering with cold feet and hands today some how qualifies your abilities any more then mine because I bought nice boots and gloves? ohh your numbers are off a bit

$5800 on atv (needed the winch) polaris (main use is logging and working the land but it is so nice to drag a deer out with this and during hunting it doesn't come out unless where dragging a deer out or searching for my brother)
no trail cam
$400 rifle 7mm
$175 scope good sale leupold vxIII 3x9x50 (best deal of my life)
clothes were 200$ or about there gotta watch the after season closeouts
nonsent $5
fake horns (please I couldn't buy these if I thought they would save my life)
12$ gun case
45$ boots (gander closed the fridley store I stocked up on stuff)
12$ shells (gander closed the store ammo 50% off.. I'm stocked for a while)
20$ gloves
shooting glasses.. (not for me)

I've learned more then I ever could hope to have learn from the elders around me, uncles neighbors and who ever would talk to me when I had a question (father passed when I was young).  I never felt more at peace then when I'm sitting in my deer stand or walking the endless fields of SD for pheasant.  I'm not going to stop because I don't wear breadbags on my feet (I used to do that when I was sliding in the 70's)

[Mayfly]

I do see your view and yes we do things different.

The big difference that riles me is that you have no respect for others. Everyone has their way of doing things and doing things they way they like. I respect that about people. You sit on your perch and look down on everyone else, that is the problem.

[backwoods]

Sounds like I hit a nerve with you Tim, and I think it has more to it than me respecting peoples opinions.  I think I hit a category that you fit into and you resent it...which one is it?

I look down on fakes and wannabe's.  I resent people that wander into the woods with all the goods in a sporting store but dont have the faintest idea what to do with it.  They make it dangerous for the hunter thats out there.   These are the people that I have had to jump off my stand and lay on the ground until they were done emptying their gun and then go over and inform them that their lead was flying over my head.  This has happened and its always the guy from the cities that just opens up and has no concept.

All my point is and has been, is that the real reason to be out there is the beauty of it all.  If you disagree with that, then therein lies the problem.  Anyone that is only out there to shoot a deer is missing 99% of the movie.

I grew up in a different era than you, Tim.  Baiting was seen what city folk did so that they could try and get a shot so they could fire their expensive rifle and brag about the antlers, if it even had any.  It's against the law.  Period, in the state of Minnesota, its not a gray area.   Baiters are spineless hunters in my book, and if you bait, you are a criminal.  To me, there is nothing to even discuss respecting.

I cannot and will not respect anyone that cant use SKILL to get a deer.  Skill is: knowing the deer and how to find it, hitting it cleanly when you do find it, and then taking it home and butchering it after you kill it.  Poachers, baiters, its all the same to me.   One does it at night, the other poaches during the day, using bait.

[TNT]

dearest backwoods,
you are hitting a nerve with many members, by the looks of your posts, and their replies. and the beauty of the beast is, when enough of the users/members are tired of this, they might ask for your ip to be blocked, rid the site of this pot stirrer/trouble maker/strong opinionated/shove my thinking down your throat kind of guy. so maybe keep your strong opinions to yourself and try to contibute to the site without causing an arguement every time you get the chance.
one question for you now,
have you ever in your life driven over the posted speed limit on a roadway?
simple question, and would just like a simple answer, yes or no.
ciao.

[Mayfly]

Sounds like I hit a nerve with you Tim, and I think it has more to it than me respecting peoples opinions.  I think I hit a category that you fit into and you resent it...which one is it?

I fit none of the catgories that you have mentioned.

[22lex]

All my point is and has been, is that the real reason to be out there is the beauty of it all.  If you disagree with that, then therein lies the problem.  Anyone that is only out there to shoot a deer is missing 99% of the movie.

So if I disagree with your "bold" statement of what the true meaning of hunting is, am I only missing 50% of the movie?

I definately agree with your views on poaching backwoods. However, I cannot agree with your definitions of true hunting, or skills when it's all perception driven. What you perceive as the whole movie, is looked at by another as something a little less than what they want to appreciate. Clearly I'm not talking about the "newbie" that affords all the expensive products and goes crashing through the woods unloading thier chamber. I am talking about everyday hunters who cherish getting out to the woods for reasons that don't agree with your perception or mine. You can't bash those people if they don't get your concept of hunting, while in the same sense I cannot disrespect your outlooks on what you perceive to be the rules of hunting. To each their own, right?

Each person holds the sport of hunting in their own respect and is afforded that right by our country. A patriot like yourself knows that. I would also be willing to bet that a true patriot like yourself would respect the differences in perception, not try to persuade people to think exactly like you do about something, and have the willingness to be able to look past the city slicker outside as long as there was a true hunter in there.

For the record I don't fit any of your generalizations of people whom you don't respect. I am 90% bowhunter, 5% gun hunter, and 5% BS'er.

[Mayfly]

I look down on fakes and wannabe's.  I resent people that wander into the woods with all the goods in a sporting store but dont have the faintest idea what to do with it.  They make it dangerous for the hunter thats out there.   These are the people that I have had to jump off my stand and lay on the ground until they were done emptying their gun and then go over and inform them that their lead was flying over my head.  This has happened and its always the guy from the cities that just opens up and has no concept.

Fakes and wanna'bes. It is all a matter of opinion what a fake or a wanna'be is. Saying that they make it dangerous is merely an opinion.

I see you have an issue with people from the "cities". I hunt a lot and am in the outdoors a lot. I have had problems with all types of people. Should I lump all people that live out in the areas that I hunt into one group? How about the guy who lives north of bemidji and hunts off his porch all year long? That is poaching. Should I assume all that live out in that area and under those conditions are poachers and doing the same?

I was involved with a lease of potlatch land near Nevis, Mn. The neigbors had first dibs on the land and passed. Once it was posted they continued to ride thier 4-wheelers and trespass onto the land. When weren't there we would find gut piles on the land and had reporst of people hutning in the land. Should I assume that all people that live out in the country practice those types of ethics and morals?

Let's see....how about the landowner out near marshall whos propery borders a WMA. There is a strip of WMA that runs along his property and that is the only way to access the large portion of the WMA. This farmer then defaces the WMA sign and pushes it over. Then he has the nerve to put a no trespassing sign up. Are all farmers like this?? Are they all guilty of property damage?

Lets start looking at people as individuals. Lets start worrying about ourselves rather than what other people are doing unless it is breaking the law. If Mr. Doctor wants to buy the best gear out there for his two days of the year that he hunts his property or state land in northern mn then let him and don't worry about it. His proerty taxes probably paid for the road you are driving on. And the money that he spent at the diner down the street along with all the other city slickers probably paid your neighbors daughters wages for a year.

[Randy Kaar]

have to agree with you Tim, my neighbor at my property has
told me what goes on with the locals. most dont hunt deer season.
they can get their deer anytime, in season or not. locals dont
like us city people. plain as that! i got lucky and have great nieghbors
that keep a eye on my little piece of land.

randy

[Go Big Red!]

Time to move on.  I can see this starting to get ugly and that's not what needs to occur.

It's a good post. Something that affects all of us outdoors people. Good conversations have taken place whether you agree or disagree on what has been said.  I signed on for learning and story telling, so far so good.  I don't want to see any of this go south and put a bad taste in my mouth.

[stevejedlenski]

i think a lot of the hunters that backwoods is talking about are probably new hunters. they are just getting into the sport, have no where to go, dont know what they are doing, but are told they need all of that new top of the line expensive crap that you could do without. i used to be one of those hunters, anything new i was willing to try...because i didnt know any better. now as i have taken a few deer and such im willing to part with some of that stuff and use my brain to outsmart the game and find that it is much more challenging and rewarding. i have nothing against someone who has all of that fine equipment as long as they arent doing anything illegal or unethical. i do however challenge them to leave behind that sometime and experience the thrill of chasing game with you and your weapon. sure you may not get as many but you will appreciate it a lot more. isnt that what its aobut anyways... what makes it different than target practice... the challange. everyone must start somewhere and when they are successfull i think they will find a way to make it more challenging on their own.

[backwoods]

I guess my point is, there was nothing in the rules of the TOS that said I had to respect or agree with anything here, only abide by the rules.  I am doing that.

I live in America and there is nothing in the constitution or the laws that say I have to respect anyone or anything.  Only live by the law.   I do that, and I am challenging peoples perspectives and it can get ugly then.   You dont agree with me, I dont agree with you.  So what?  Does life end?  No.  These are words and if words aren't used to stir an emotional debate, then for what end do humans live?

If its easier to block my IP than think, debate like men, and have civil disagreements, by all means, do so.   It wont matter to me one way or the other, but it will prove my point and that is some people just plain dont like to be challenged.

Additionally, it wont make me respect people that I dont think need to be respected.  Or agreed with.  Do what you have to do.

[backwoods]

Additionally, I think Steve is the closest to understanding my point, and breaks it down nicely and explains it better than I have.

[22lex]

I live in America and there is nothing in the constitution or the laws that say I have to respect anyone or anything. 

Nice thread DE. It really sparked up some interests in the baiting issues and such. I would like to add these issues do all affect us that do not own their own land. It is hard enough the way it is to get permission, and situations like DE went through sometimes seals the deal in the eyes of a prospective permission property.

I would say you did the right thing once again. You respected you neighbors and handled it in the way I probably would have, hopefully they respect you in return. I guess that's all you can ask for.

[HUNTER2]

I remember when I was younger and couldn't afford good cloths and boots and froze my ars off. Now I'm older and I'm a firm believer you get what you pay for. You buy cheap boots, your feet will get cold. You buy cheap clothes and you will get cold. Yes i still have a pair of wool pants. Yes I have several trail camera's. But i like to see the pictures and share them with other people. It's nice to know what might be around. As far as being a good hunter, I've been at it for quite a few years being I'm 51. Most of the big bucks are shot chasing does any way, so it has a lot to do with luck.

[smokey bear]

dont whine about it like a little kid. do something about it . you sound like the person that lives next to a crack house and just turn their head. if you were  a TRUE SPORTSMAN you would have resolved this already. grow some balls and do the right thing. this man is walking on all of us not just you

[deadeye]

Ok Smokey, in your book, what would a TRUE SPORTSMAN do here?  I don't see the reason to go in with guns blazing when a simple request may have the same effect.  Remember it's a lot eaiser to get a friend to do something for you than it would be to convince an enemy to do the same. 

[Cody Gruchow]

besides there really aint much a CO can do, HE HAS to SEE the GUY HUNTING over the BAIT. so the only thing the CO can and will do is tell them to clean it up, otherwise they could just play dumb and say hmmm lets say Deadeye for example if they knew he calling them, they could say that deadeye put it there and called because he had a grudge of some sort. see were im going, without the CO himself viewing the guy do it, its only going to start a pissing match.


Smokey whats a true sportsman. he isnt whining about it for one, he was simply asking for everyones opinion and it has strayed far from the subject.

why cause problems when you dont have to, everyone deserves a warning then if they dont follow the warning then do something, but like i stated above there isnt much a CO can do but scare them a little, unless he is caught hunting over it.

dont worry about the select few on this subject DE you did the right thing.

[ChrisWallace]

I guess if I use quality boots and clothing so I can sit in the cold and be comfortable and when I use my binos to make sure its a doe and not a nubbin or spike, than use my rangefinder to know the exact distance that deer is away from me. Than I settle the crosshairs of my leupold or burris scope just right behind the shoulder, than send a quality, (lead free) american made bullet out of the barrel of my tikka or weatherby and hit the spot I aim and make a clean, killing shot on the deer. Cool..than after I gut the deer and use a saw to split the pelvic bone, im gonna throw it in the back of a nice new ford truck that belongs to ME!

And if its for archery, Im going to use my year old bowtech, with all the bells whistles, the spot hogg 7 pin, with the vapor trail strings and the carbon express maximas tipped with the sharpest broadheads I have. Ill be in nice rubber boots with the scent blocker dream season gear on, and Ill be sitting in a lone wolf stand or in one of my Double Bull Blinds waiting, but Ill use my range finder and range some areas so I know where is where to help me make a clean, efficient kill. When I start tracking the deer after giving it plenty of time to stiffen up and die, Im gonna use a streamlight, its a lot brighter and alot safer than using the old coleman lantern.

I guess if I use top of the line, and modern equipment to effectively and cleanly kill whatever I pursue and someone wants to call me a faker or a wannabe, I guess thats fine with me.

Everyone has their way of doing things. Im not going to judge anyone on their style of hunting, and what they use to pursue their quarry as long as they are legal...

[Cody Gruchow]

And another thing, I've held my tongue long enough.......What makes some think they can question someone else's way of hunting??????? Just because it aint the "OLD WAY" or what ever that is, doesnt mean its the wrong way. so im not a true hunter because i worked my arse off to save up and buy myself a nice bow? or a nice ACCURATE gun????? or how about my deer stands? yes i do invest alot of time and money into deer hunting. and i have alot of the hightech gizmos that you speak of...rangefinder which is my best friend, helps on making ethical shots at an animal because you know the EXACT distance, scope on my slug gun and deer rifle helps make a good clean shot...trail cameras because i like pictures of deer and other animals, i like knowing whats in my woods. it really does not take SKILL to tag a TROPHY buck or even a doe...you can think you have all the SKILL in the world and never tag out. hunting is about 95% luck plain and simple, you can think you know exactly were the deer are coming from to were they feed to were they bed, but guess what it all comes down to the deer actually showing up...just like thanksgiving evening i have been studying a certain deer for over a year, i thought i knew everything his main territory the other bucks he groups with and guess what he threw me a curve ball and i messed up. so your saying that FARMER JOHN knows more about this deer than i do because he was the one who bagged him???? also i now live in the metro, does that make me a city slicker it absolutly does not... only moved here because there is   for jobs up from were im from. ok im done with my rant i feel better

[Cody Gruchow]

well said chris

[backwoods]

Some of you people are losing your perspective and coming unglued...and it wont do anyone any good if you do that.

If  you guys want to spend your hard earned money on toys, so be it.  If that makes you a better hunter, fine.

I have had the $35k bass boats and $45k trucks and I went back to driving an old 91 Suburban and fish out of a 14 ft aluminum.  For me, I am 1000x happier but thats me.   I get 10000x more pleasure catching a crappie out of a 14 ft Crestliner than I did catching an 8 lb walleye out of my Ranger.  Stop and think: how much am I paying, per lb of fish, duck, goose, deer, elk, moose...?

Where is the break even point and what am I ACTUALLY getting out of purchasing this?

Material things dont buy the happiness or get the deer FOR ME.  Repeat: FOR ME.

I can see its time to step away from the monitor and let you guys duke this out.

[Auggie]

DE,
   I think you handled it the best way you could have. Give them a chance to take care of the problem before calling in Jonny Law.

Backwoods,
   The law may be cut and dry. That doesn't mean the enforcement of it needs to be. We are not talking about a murder case here. Although I agree with you that baiting is wrong, the world will not stop turning because of it. Your views on the "old" ways puzzle me. Just because something was/is harder does not mean it is better. If that were the case we would all still be plowing the land with a horse farting in our face and tipping over dead on average by our mid 50's. Don't get me wrong some of the "old" ways are great. But so are some of the new ways. Give a few of them a try, I bet your sunrise and the beautiful aroma of the fall woods will still be intact. I know mine is. And with a few of the creature comforts of today, you may enjoy the experience that much more!

[Cody Gruchow]

we are trying to prove a POINT to you....how does it make us any less of a hunter? i am proud of everything i got, because i worked for it ALL. i got tired of the old bow, i do own a 30-30 with a scope that i took my first 3 deer with, just because i have graduated from that doesnt mean i have lost the ways my uncles my grandfathers and my father taught me. you owe the animal a certain respect to make a quick clean kill. i also fish out of a 14 foot boat that i purchased when i was 16 and have no plans on getting rid of it ever, also have 98 ford explorer that i also bought all by myself that i couldnt be happy with. and i understand that materials dont buy happiness but im happy out in the woods or out on the water and the longer i can be in my treestand the happyer im going to be, if i see a deer or not i could really care less, im there for the love of the outdoors.

[smokey bear]

there is no law that says you cannot feed deer so there is nothing to there to clean up. you can bait all you want you just cannot hunt near it. you cannot hunt a baited area for 10 days after the bait has been removed. a CO will take note of the baited area and will cite anyone in close proxy to the bait even if they did not know the area was baited. inorance is no excuse. poachers are criminals people who hunt over bait are criminals and should be dealt with by proper authorities. cited guns collected and loose hunting priviages for 3 years thats how i feel about game thieves because thats all they are is thugs

[Cody Gruchow]

ok what about Cmere deer salt blocks and mineral blocks they aint considered bait, is it wrong to hunt by one of those.

[stevejedlenski]

i though of another reason that i dont care for all the fine equipment and that is the real reason i hunt. i hunt not to get an animal but to enjoy being outside and observing what happens in the real world. to get away from the roads and people and schedules and working and paying bills and chores and all the worries that "life" has. its where i can relax breathe easy and enjoy the real world. i can just sit and listen to nature and go in at the end of the night without seeing anything and be happy. so many people are getting caught up in getting the best things and getting the edge in hunting and forget why they actually enjoy hunting. even when you do get the big one you put it on your wall and your back out next year. if it was about getting deer then you would have stopped when you did. and yes i know there are a few individuals that all it is about is bragging and shooting as much as they can which brings me to the point of

who is a hunter...

a hunter is someone who will sit in a stand and not get anything and still go out year after year. a hunter will show he has ethics and learn about the species he is after. they will try and do their homework to get the animal they are after. a hunter will enjoy the outdoors for what it is and not try and bring the crazy world with them. a hunter is not made by what gear he has or what tactics he uses. a hunter is someone who values the privilage he has to be outdoors and will try and protect what he has. he will do what is best for the land and game and not what will benifit him. the ethics hunters have vary on what they were brought up with. he will have a set of morals and is embarassed if he does something against them. a hunter takes pride in his game and will try to put it down as quickly as possible. as you can see what im getting at is being a hunter is not what gear you have but what mindset you have. i know a lot of people get caught up in the pursuit of game but they still have those moments where they reflect and realize what hunting means to them.
yes after that there are still the people that hunt for the bragging or status of getting the most or trying to be the best and thats what they will do to achieve that. you can tell these type by how they will tell you all about how they have the best things and how they shoot all the biggest animals or the most. they always have lots of pictures and spend all their money and make sure everyone knows that they are the best and their way is the only way. sometimes they will even resort to illegal means for bragging rights... im glad ive only met a few in my life and hope i never meet another one.

backwoods said it right that material things dont buy happiness and neither does the big buck or limit of whatever. what you will look back on over the years is the experience and the memories of the hunt and the people you hunt with. so really think about it, who is a hunter to you and what does hunting mean to you...

[smokey bear]

I take great pride in teaching firearms saftey training for the Mn DNR and if i were to copy all this and show it to them i would be ashamed. those of us that play by the rules are getting screwed over by the cheaters that is just not right. TIP is a very nice program to deal with people that do not play by the rules and rest assured every person who comes to my classes knows what TIP means.

[Cody Gruchow]

ive already stated that i dont care if i shoot something or not, to me it has nothing to do with it at all. i like watching deer turkeys and other wildlife, i love to watch how they interact(sp) with one another, i like getting trail camera photos of them, i like seeing a deer trying to slip threw the woods undetected. if it was all about limiting then i would of limited by halloween. you can never learn to much about your passion and my passion is deer hunting mainly with a bow. i do hunt everything else but if i had to choose 1 it would be deer hunting. i have also said that being out in the woods makes me happy and with warmer clothes means i can be out there longer and enjoy it. good post.

[Cody Gruchow]

i play by every rule written in the book and then some...... just because im not amped up to turn someone in without talking with them first does not mean im letting them getting away with breaking a rule. thats like telling the teacher on someone because they didnt bring a pencil to class, i mean its a rule you have to have a writtin untencil(sp) and BOTH of my boss's are firearms safety instructors and i  have talked to both of them about this and they both said the same thing, and thats to talk to the person first. maybe they miss read the rule book, i have done that on ocassion it aint always simple to figure out in the book.

[22lex]

Well said Steve....

Smokey, thanks for your service you provide the state.