Baiting dilemma.

[Auggie]

I take great pride in teaching firearms saftey training for the Mn DNR and if i were to copy all this and show it to them i would be ashamed. those of us that play by the rules are getting screwed over by the cheaters that is just not right. TIP is a very nice program to deal with people that do not play by the rules and rest assured every person who comes to my classes knows what TIP means.

Thanks for the service Smokey. I don't think a citation however, is the best way to TEACH people in all cases. In this case it most likely would have caused a big riff between two neighbors and the only thing gained would have been a fine paid by a third party who learned nothing but how much his ticket cost. Instead the guy might learn how his actions can affect another and change his ways. If not, then he most likely will get the ticket in the future, pay it, and continue about his unethical ways no matter what.

[smokey bear]

you are welcome we just like to see the kids start out the "right" way.  As i know you all do. I have no tolerance for such activities and I guess now you know why.

[Spinach]

I've been reading this thread for a while now and I think you all agree on the true meaning of a hunter more than you think, we all enjoy the outdoors, enjoy wildlife, spending time with family or friends, limiting out is just a bonus. I have personally taken hundreds of trips to upper red lake as one example knowing ahead of time that we would be lucky to catch a few crappies. Did that stop me? Not at all, I just enjoy the time spent outdoors and the challenge. I don't believe for one second that a person would enjoy fishing out of a 14 foot aluminum verses a 19 foot lind pro v either, that's like saying you enjoy weiner water soup over a juicy steak. If a person has the recources to own fancier equipment that does not mean they have bad hunting ethiques... Maybe I misunderstood the post??? If you really want to take it back to the old ways or old school hunting, maybe a recurve or slingshot is in order.

[Spinach]

Concerning this thread... As long as everyone stays civil, no name calling or outright bashing of others, we will allow this thread to continue. We don't all have to agre and its ok to state your opinions, we are all friends in the end I hope! Have fun and let the debating continue if need be. As for deadeye and the original question, tough decision... I would have tried to keep it civil as well until the neighbor took that option away. I agree laws are laws and calling tip is the correct thing to do, but this was a sticky situation for you. The main goal is to teach your neighbor and eliminate the baiting, which looks to be hopefully handled.

[JCAMERON]

I don't really know if a ticket/fine would really teach anything to the guy. This year I went and bought all of my licenses at once. Small game, pheasant, fed. waterfowl, etc. I was certain that I asked for every thing i needed for all of my hunting. I didn't buy a state waterfowl stamp. Maybe I never asked for it, maybe the lady behind the counter didn't hear me... I don't know. But at the time I was confident that I had all i needed to hunt, so i signed it all and carried on. On opener of early goose I encountered a CO for the first time ever, on private land of all places. He checked me and turns out I didn't get the stamp. I tried reasoning with the guy telling him that I clearly intended on hunting within the law, I had licenses for everything else, just a mistake. Granted i should have inspected it before i signed it. In the end I got a $125 ticket that I've yet to pay. I did learn a bit from the situation. Next time I will inspect what i'm signing and be more careful, and that the CO was a prick! Does it make me a criminal? I don't think so. Does it make me a cheater? I don't think so. I was considering not hunting anymore due to this situation.
Point being - a ticket doesn't always change someones ways.

[bowhunter73]

let me see if I got this. You got a ticket
because you were wrong. But you are not
a criminal or a cheater. yet the guy who did his job is a prick 

what about the cop who gives you a ticket
for 70 in a 50  is he a prick too??? 

[JCAMERON]

I'm talking about compassion for another being. 70 in a 50 is blatent disobedience of the law. clearly making a mistake, one of the nature pretaining to my situation, doesn't exactly call for $125 ticket.

The point of it was immediatly after the cite. I didn't think, "oh man, next time I'm going to be darn sure to get what I need." I thought "jeez that guy was a prick."
I did learn a lesson from the situation, but it came at the cost of both $125 to myself and a poor first impression of Minnesota CO. Given time for the situation to settle; Yes - I realized the guy was doing his job and he could have had my guns and restitution for my birds. So I was lucky in that sense. And yes, i should have been more clear/ careful when purchasing my licenses/stamps.

Further more - Had the baiter been given a ticket I highly doubt he is going to think "well I guess i had better never do that again." My guess is he would think " Man, DE/ DNR is a prick..."

[backwoods]

Jcameron:  I am here to tell you that you are a fine example of what is wrong with America today and that is, purely, simply...people blame everyone else instead of taking responsibility and OWNING their mistakes.  I suggest that you take a strong look inward next time you want to call anyone a prick...you screwed up, you got a ticket, and you have the audacity to call a CO a prick?

I am literally shocked how liberal the group on here is about "wanting Deadeye to talk to their neighbor first" over an illegal activity.   It boggles my mind that collectively, a group of sportsmen don't see it as an insult to them, their group, or their credibility that one of theirs is breaking the law and luring animals in to shoot them.

You guys can rationalize it anyway you want, and I see that many of you are...I see it as a sign of the times and I dont consider it pretty.  It sounds more like you want to give the violating hunter a "time out" and not give him his afternoon cookie and milk.  I just dont get what is happening to our country.

[HUNTER2]

The guy who did the baiting was the owners brother in law. I think everybody just wants to see if the landowner knew about it before pissing him off for many years. As for having a lot of pictures, I get a lot of them from my cameras and I think there is a lot of people on here that like to look at them. If it bothers you, DON'T LOOK. 

[Auggie]

Backwoods,
   Answer this for me please. In your opinion you believe that it is more important to enforce a law over who gets to (possibly) shoot a deer, is worth a disagreement with a neighbor/friend that could last for years or maybe forever? Part of the "old way" of thinking that I was taught is you lend a hand to a neighbor/friend when you can. If a conversation doesn't rectify the situation, fine get law enforcement involved. But why not try and take care of the situation without the big fuss? It is single minded thought like this that worries me about the direction this country is headed. If more people would take the time to get to know their neighbors and talk with them half the problems we have would disappear. Many laws are intended to keep us from doing ourselves and others harm, this clearly is not one of them. Like I stated before, the law may be black and white, but the enforcement of it is not.

[backwoods]

Shane: Explain to me then, why if its the brother in law doing the law breaking, why turning the matter over to the DNR is going to result in alienating the actual neighbor?  Secondly, if you turn it over to the DNR, there is no reason in the world the neighbor would ever even know it was you.  And lastly, who cares, if the actual landowner knows its going on and is fine with it...?  Theres a whole series of not so good arguments for being nice to a guy that is stealing game from other sportsmen that are legitimate, law abiding hunters.

I question the arguments used in favor of not writing the guy a ticket.  I think you guys just believe that if it was you breaking the law, you would want leniency.  Thats what I think is really under all of it.

Pat: you lost me.  I didnt tie ethics and aluminum boats together.  I was pointing out that spending money on expensive toys didnt buy me happiness.  The point was, its the experience that matters...not what you are sitting in.

[Auggie]

Shane: Explain to me then, why if its the brother in law doing the law breaking, why turning the matter over to the DNR is going to result in alienating the actual neighbor?  Secondly, if you turn it over to the DNR, there is no reason in the world the neighbor would ever even know it was you.  And lastly, who cares, if the actual landowner knows its going on and is fine with it...?  Theres a whole series of not so good arguments for being nice to a guy that is stealing game from other sportsmen that are legitimate, law abiding hunters.

I question the arguments used in favor of not writing the guy a ticket.  I think you guys just believe that if it was you breaking the law, you would want leniency.  Thats what I think is really under all of it.

Pat: you lost me.  I didnt tie ethics and aluminum boats together.  I was pointing out that spending money on expensive toys didnt buy me happiness.  The point was, its the experience that matters...not what you are sitting in.

   So you would like YOUR brother inlaw getting pinched over something that could be handled in a much less complicated manner? How would the neighbor not know who turned him in? The location pretty much dictated that. Even if they didn't know for sure there would always be that suspicion. Do you know that the land owner knew of the situation before you jumped on the phone to call in Jonny Law? You seem to throw alot of assumption into your opinions of others thoughts. If you would ask people about things before jumping to conclusions, you may understand the train of thought that I have on this issue along with others here.
   Now that I have answered your question, please give me an answer to mine without it being in the form of another question. Or maybe I should just answer it for you.

[TNT]

unless he shot a deer over the corn and soybeans, it is NOT illegal to put it out, feeding is allowed,(unless in the TB no feed zone) but shooting over feed isn't, so unless he shot an animal over this food within ten days from it being comsumed it is not illegal. time to chill out, and i know, it's by the plot and a stand, but unless he shot an animal in the time frame not allowed, it isn't illegal.
 
and backwoods,
you never answered the question about driving over the the posted speed limit, so here it is again,
have you ever in your life driven over the posted speed limit on any roadway?

[JCAMERON]

This is getting out of hand.

[backwoods]

Auggie:  I answered your question, by way of pointing out that I didnt figure your arguments were valid.   I guess that yes, I consider the law more important.  I consider that the landowner knew about the violation and I have no sympathy for baiters.  Throw the book at them.

Secondly.  If its MY brother in law and HE's breaking the law, throw the book at him.  I have no sympathy for baiters.

TNT: if you are going to disseminate information, you had best make sure you are right, and if you read the rules and regs, you are not correct, in the State of Minnesota.  Hunting over ANY baited food for deer is baiting.

[JCAMERON]

I pointed that out myself... It's getting out of hand because you are being offensive. How did i blame someone else? My point was that my first THOUGHT was that he was a prick. Thankfully i thought the situation through afterward and rationalized that he was doing his job and it could have fared a lot worse for myself. I was trying to say that his neighbor might hold a grudge about it... Having a bad relationship with a neighbor could never be good.

[22lex]

This is getting out of hand.

I would have to agree.

People interjecting emotional perspectives, posting "key" words that hit home to spur debates, or genuinely not respecting other posters on both sides of the arguements is not what this thread was intended for by Deadeye.

DE collectively wanted our opinions, we gave them to him.

[backwoods]

I dont think its out of control at all.  I think that some of you just don't like what you are reading, and because of that, you use the "out of control" argument.

Funny how it wasn't out of control when Movin2thecountry was all over me...but now that the group has decided I am the problem, its out of control.  lol 

Jcameron: lets put this in perspective.   I think your statement about thinking the cop is a prick is a perfect example of how people make excuses for not taking responsibility.   If that offends you, and that leads you to saying this is out of control, I would say you are wrong.  Its not out of control, its pointing out that your thinking is very flawed.  Everyone has been gracious enough here to point out that my thinking is flawed, and I havent said one thing about it being out of control, have I?

I will step away from the debate and let you all resolve it to your satisfaction.  I have said what I felt was relative and will enjoy watching from a distance.  I make no apologies for my comments and I offer no apologies for those it offends.

People often use, or hide behind, being offended rather than face the fact that what the other person is saying may very well have truth to it.

[Bobby Bass]

OK, time for everyone to take a breath , step back and get back on their points. Take a minute to think over your answers. Very good debate on several topics. Lets try to keep it a debate and not let it turn into a bunch of small arguments.

[JCAMERON]

I wasn't trying to say that I shouldn't have gotten a ticket in any sense.
Your a debating type guy... I really don't like debating via forum for a few reasons, which is why i said its getting out of hand. I guess this being a debate it might not be getting out of hand.

[Auggie]

  I will have to agree with backwoods on the point about being out of control. It is not. But to use your own words; People often use or hide behind being offended, rather than face the fact that what some else has to say, may very well have some truth in it. That street goes both directions backwoods. Thanks for your answers to my questions, although I disagree with your point of view, it is just that. Yours.
 
Jcam as for your little ordeal. Do I consider you a crook? No not for a second. Did you  :censored:up. Yes. Was the Warden doing his job? Yes. Did the punishment fit the  up? Sure it did, like you said it could have been a lot worse. In retrospect I think you realize that. And I bet you will never forget to check that again!

[stevejedlenski]

one thing i have to say on this is about thinking CO's are pricks... i know jcameron you made your point that you dont think he was a prick now and this isnt just about your situation. its always the few that ruin it for the many...

anytime anyone gets a ticket they are obviously pissed, me included. but what you have to think of when you are upset because you honestly werent trying to break the law is that the CO hears that same thing every time he writes a ticket... how can you prove your not the guy trying to pull a fast one. so you have to put yourself in the co's shoes. same goes for laws... like slot limits, i know a lot of fish go to waste because of the slot, but if they alowed you to keep those damaged fish then you would have the sucker damaging fish to keep them.

and as far as DE's situation i think it depends on the relationship you had with the neighbor and your personal decision. yes its the right thing to do by turning him in, and yes its the right thing to do to let him explain himself. just like the CO has officer decresion you have to look at the situation and make the call yourself... and everones will be different than someone elses and the same persons will be different in different situations... it was DE's call and he made it. yes you may not agree but its not our call and we dont know all of the factors involved... im sure theres some things DE will call a co for that we would not...

quote forest gump ( and thats all i have to say about that)

[Moving2thecountry]

Nevermind