Should Lead shot be banned?

[Outdoors Junkie]

There was an article recently in the Mpls Star trib that was talking about banning lead shot. They were making cases to either ban it totaliy, or a partial ban like on public hunting land.

Some say it's toxic, while others say the studies showing harm to birds from lead shot in an upland setting are pretty inconclusive.


What do you think, should lead shot be banned?

[Brandon_Collins]

no

[Spinach]

I say they either ban lead shot or not ban it at all..... Nothing in between. It's hard enough now to remember not to have any lead shot in possession when hunting waterfowl, if they ban lead shot on public land only but still allow it on private land, this will be even more confusing.

Either ban it or not, don't do it half ass.

I personally prefer lead shot to steel for upland hunting, but the differences in the 2 as far as accuracy are so Minuit, that I could live with only having the choice of Steel.

As far as lead shot being toxic? I would only guess that this is probably true.

[Faceman]

I understand the debate of lead for water fowl, with the fish and birds getting the lead BUT we can still use lead sinkers fishing. I dont understand that. I dont want a ban on lead but if there is I hope the cost of steel, tungsten, or whatever come down. I also agree that if a partial ban is on it will be even more confusing. Just my 2 cents whether it is right or wrong.

[GRIZ]

I don't believe that lead impacts the waterfowl and fish as much is reported. When you think about how little lead(on a heavily hunted lake) actually got into an individual body of water. If that little amount is enough to create toxicity then lead should be banned entirely from everything else we use it for. I think more of our problems come from pesticides and other chemicals.

[WoodChuck]

 :o ??? :-\  LEAD ? lead is a natural elemant!  it comes from the earth and is only one element in its natural form to be used by man without haveing to be changed by extraction or additives added to change its form! we all understand there are hazards to lead , but lets not be guliable to all what we hear. weather lead is in its natural form or processed to any one of mans forms , it still is lead still the same . lead introduced to water or land through the barrel of a gun or on a fishing line  does not change a thing it was produced by nature and nature will take care of it as long as it is not dumped by the pounds or tons as in commerical enterprises. perhaps we should step back and take a look at the oil that is sprayed on and under the roads we drive on daily to and back from. we never hear anything about this kind of polluation! but yet we want and expect more roads without a further thought. whats more our western migratory flyway to the west of us in western south dakota at" LEAD" witch none the less is where lead is mined ? does it have a problem with dead birds in its water system??? in and around their area ???? MY POINT IN SHORT IS , its here and it will always be here so lets just be responsable for the few shots of lead we leave and pick up our caseings and brass! just my thoughts !!!!!!!!!!!!

[GRIZ]

There again somebody put it better than my brief attempt.

[jigglestick]

say a duck, scavanging on the bottom, eats a lead pellet and say that duck does get lead poisening. it will die.

say a flock of bluebills come in to my dekes and I shoot at two of them and they are both hit but because of the lighter impact of steel shot, they fly off to die somewhere else, or they crumple to hit the water and the next six shots at them fail to tip them over finaly they dive never to resurface.
the end result is the same.
I believe I can kill ducks more effectively with lead shot period.
I cripple more birds with steel.
I guess it matters what a duck dies from?

its about control. they will never be happy.

[pray for the fish]

"its about control , they will never be happy."  Thats a big 10-4. They want people to believe man is the scurge of the earth, even though over 99% of species have become extinct long before man showed up.

[Benny]

I agree with the ban it all or not at all post, why complicate things.

I have switched over to steel and non toxic altogether any way, sure the heavy shot is spendy as is the tungstun.
But that heavy shot kills them just like lead did for me, just remember to keep your shots in closer and don't sky bust just because you think they are in range for the non toxic shots.

Benny

[GRIZ]

I believe I can kill ducks more effectively with lead shot period.
I cripple more birds with steel.
I guess it matters what a duck dies from?

its about control. they will never be happy.

That's entirely true. I think more ducks are crippled and die with hunters using steel shot then ever die of ingesting lead pellets.

I agree with the ban it all or not at all post, why complicate things.

I have switched over to steel and non toxic altogether any way, sure the heavy shot is spendy as is the tungstun.
But that heavy shot kills them just like lead did for me,.

Benny

That is true that heavy shot and the like will work just as well but like you said at a higher price. Some of the loads needed for hunting are not available with these shot replacements. Example would be buckshot.

They need to find an alternative shot at a resonable price b4 they talk about banning anymore things. One that would have similar ballistics to lead. A bag of heavy shot cost about $80-90 for a 7 lb bag and lead cost $20 for a 25 lb bag.

It is all about control!!! They have already effectively eliminated coyote hunting at night on WPA land except on moonlit nights with a snow cover.

[Benny]

You can get #4 buck in the Dead Coyote brand Tungston shot.

I never bothered to try reloading after the first few years that steel was mandated.

I found it cheaper to buy over the counter durring the year end clearances.

But these days the stores are not having the clearance sales they once did, to many are just buying enough ammo to barley get by for the season.

Benny

[GRIZ]

I know ya can find some of that stuff around and I've also seen the  price tag that goes with it. There is no reason hunting needs to move in the direction of a rich mans sport.

[Benny]

OH I totaly agree Griz, it is getting expensive to play now days and that is exactly what the ANTI's set out to do to us sportsman and women.


Benny

[shakey legs 2]

I have been hunting since the late 50's and still going strong and since I hunted before steel shot was around I will throw my 2 cents out there.  I have never been comfortable hunting with steel.  I don't hunt ducks or geese anymore but I hunt pheasants a lot and I can testify to the ineffectiveness of steel shot, especially at ranges beyond 30 yards.  Now I know someone out there will say that the majority of upland game is shot within 30 yards and for the first couple of weeks that is mostly true.  However, once the birds get educated you might only get a couple of chances, especially hunting public land, and kills that can be made effectively with lead shot are not possible with steel.  A couple of years ago I was hunting on a WP area and crippled 3 roosters with steel that even with dogs we could not find because of the heavy cover and dry conditions.  There is no question in my mind that they would have come down dead with lead.

The manufactures have tried to improve steel by increasing muzzle velocity but because of shot size being different than lead you are not putting out the same number of bb's in the pattern which decreases your chances of making a clean kill.  I have used Hevi-shot and tungsten/matrix and while those shells come very close to lead I cringe at putting $2 shells in the gun, let alone thinking about what each miss costs.  When you connect with these shells they can also ruin the meat because they penetrate better than lead.

I can't comment about the effects of lead on waterfowl because I am not an expert and I don't hunt them but to ban lead for upland game is a mistake in my opinion.

[DaveO]

I think that most of this crap comes from our DNR and they don't know shi*,,

I think the DNR goofs up more stuff for the sporting people than they do good..

Not to mention the DNR waist allot more money on things that don't even have anything at all to do with OUR natural resources.

I know I will get allot of crap for saying what I am,,

But I have a member of my family that is a Dept. head for the DNR..and when I sit down at family dinners and listen to this guy talk it makes me want to vomit.

There is proof that lead shot does not do no where near the damage or poisoning that the DNR claims it does..

There is no reason at  all we should be forced into using shot that cost $2.00 a shell.

there is no reason we have to buy a stamp or a lic. for every breath we take either.

So I believe that most of the crap we have to put up with is because of Our DNR is a bunch of Moran's that have no idea what the heck they are doing,,,

I would rather see someone like Griz or jigglestick in office. Someone that relay gets out there and is a true outdorsman and takes the time to relay make a educated say in matters.


K,,,,Im done now

I think our DNR are a waist of skin

[labs4me]

Hey DaveO,  your last post is a little vague,  could you quit beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel?  hehehe

Good Luck!

Ken

[pray for the fish]

Davo, you won! Stop in at Agassiz Lodge and identify yourself to claim your prize. Free road pass and a scoop of crappie minnows. I'm serious, I couldn't have ranted against the DNR any better myself. All my life I have tried to make a living dealing with natural resources,first logging now resort. I could tell you horror stories from first hand experience and consequenses because of. Back to the subject at hand, banning lead shot just keeps the money circulating, as always it is about the money, never the environment. More jobs,more materials, more everything, more enforcement, more money. They could care less weather a sportman can afford it.

[alaskajim]

No, lead shot should not be regulated.  IIRC, the state(DNR) has little say over it, it is the feds forcing the state to enact these regs.

So lead kills a few birds, big deal.  Switching to non-toxic hasn't solved anything.  I too am old enough to remember hunting waterfowl with lead shot.  We had more ducks then and lost only a few to lead shot ingestion.  We lose far more to disease, then and now.

I got a great idea, let us use lead, tax it and use the revenue to create habitat.

Lead shot in its solid form causes no enviromental damage except kill a few birds that ingest it.  Witness what the EPA makes engineers do with lead from old shooting ranges, it is buried.

Non toxic shot is a gold mine to ammo manufacturers, thats what this is all about.

 The DNR doesn't give a hoot about hunters, all they care about is revenue and making the politicians happy.  Pretty soon they will not be enforcing hunting laws, they will be spending most their time enforcing enviromental laws.

[kenhuntin]

you all may not like this but lead is toxic to birds as well as humans ingesting it will dull your mind at the least.lead starts to fragment and dent as it is moving out the muzzle. which creates alot of shot flying wildly out of the shot path. that is probably the main reason guys think they can kill more birds than steel. in turn your probably wounding more birds in a flock than you are with steel.ducks don't ingest shot larger than a 5 so most duck shot in the lakes already shoudn't hurt them.but again fragments. I dont know how many birds ive cleaned and still got shot when eating them I won't chance it on my Kids so I only use non toxic in all my hunting

[kenhuntin]

the slobs that do the most damage to ducks are the guys that think they are smart by saving money on  two dollar a box trap loads and go jumping ponds. Go ahead and tell me you have never done that.

[JohnWester]

Go ahead and tell me you have never done that.

i've never done that.

[kenhuntin]

after looking at what I wrote it really looks accusatory but if you ask around it will surprise you how many people have. Your one of the few.Good job

[ChrisWallace]

All I shoot is the Heavy High, ducks, geese, they all fall the same. Its got better knockdown than lead, retained energy, shot pattern.

[Desperado]

While the points in DaveO's post are a pretty good reflection of reality, it is not limited to the MN DNR.  I know that's who we tend to pick on because we're usually addressing Sportsman's Issues.  However, in each place that his post refers to the DNR we could substitute most any government agency and/or the word bureaucrat.  AND the post would still be just as accurate.
I'm a firm beleiver in the statement "the less that our government does, the better off we all are!"