Switiching sides on APR

[kenhuntin]

I compliment my new fishing buddy Fireranger for posting the actual results of legislating APR It makes me wanna sing O Canada. It confirms my suspicions that apr will only implement the slaughter of bucks with at least 4 points on one side.
 Now please realize fellow hunters that if APR is instituted  there will be less deer availiable to harvest because of those restrictions (as I eluded to earlier) natural mortality including car hits, wolf depredation, death from infections and disease and battles from other deer must be figured into the equation. I personally have witnessed a perfectly healthy deer break a leg running away from me. I was just out watching deer and scared one up and as it bounded away I heard a terrible snap and then saw the poor devil had a compound fracture.
 I know how it goes when a bunch of guys sit around and discuss how they can get bigger bucks to kill. Someone says lets get a law passed that doesn't let the other guys do this or that. SORRY WRONG ANSWER.

[ray634]

I am having trouble deciding if this apr thing is a republican scheme or a dfl ploy.

[kenhuntin]

I also wish to compliment the stance MDHA has on this issue. It reinstills my belief and support of the organization. I was a member in the Bloomington /south metro chapters charter year. However at that time they did not welcome help from young deer enthusiasts so I have held a grudge since that time.

[Mayfly]

HD, Why yes there is a group of regular Joe deer hunters.

Hunting sports face constant challenges that impair the quality, and at times the very existence of the sports in general. A strong and unified sportsmen's and sportswomen's voice is imperative to counter the obstacles and raise awareness of the benefits of hunting.  Minnesota Deer Hunters Association is such a voice. MDHA is a grassroots, democratic organization of members.  As such, elected chapter delegates and board members meet annually to discuss and vote on resolutions, position statements and pertinent issues at MDHA's Corporate Board Meeting.  They vote based upon the update information and upon feedback from chapter members.

We strive to represent you and your hunting interests at the state legislature as well as to the state's congressional delegation. MDHA works closely with state legislators and agencies to ensure the future of deer hunting. We take positions on specific legislation and encourage passage of laws that benefit deer and deer hunting.

Just like any organization they are only for their agenda. When the majority voted to install buck management, which resulted in APR, it was MDHA that stood in the way and has unsuccessfully tried to derail APR in zone 3. Next spring it will be MDHA that attempts to stop APR in zone 3, but although they have strong influence at the state legislature they will not be able to stop this freight train.

[dakids]

MNO you are correct about MDHA being against the APR last time it was in front of the legislature.  MDHA will lobby for what a majority of its members want.  If a majority of its members are now for APR that is the way they will lobby. Become a member and try to persuade from within.   

[The General]

I asked over 20 people in this area and not one person said they wanted this stuff pushed on them.  Wish we could learn from Mississippi.

[kenhuntin]

I read the whitetail alliance reports and they really seem skewed. For instance in a petition for APR they collected 600+ signatures as opposed to the so called opposition's 1000+ signatures. The pro APR 600 signatures was construed as an overwhelming majority because it took less time get all the signatures.  Figure that out for me.

[The General]

Some people said they would be done hunting if this was implemented.  I bet if when lic were purchased the person asked you if you were in favor of this and used that as a survey the numbers would be way the other of not in favor.

[mathews4ever]

That is genius.  The DNR is always asking for hunters input, why not ask every hunter by having them answer the question when they buy their license. somebody should email Leslie McInenly with this idea. Then there would not be any more of this my side his the majority crap, just cold hard facts.

[kenhuntin]

I changed the info it was actually 600 pro APR and 1000 anti yet they claim the majority is in the 600?
I miswrote the stats originally

[HUNTER2]

Ok, I put out minerals and food plots to try and get them big as I can and the neibors shoot anything they can. Maybe I should quit.

[Swany]

That is genius.  The DNR is always asking for hunters input, why not ask every hunter by having them answer the question when they buy their license. somebody should email Leslie McInenly with this idea. Then there would not be any more of this my side his the majority crap, just cold hard facts.

I second that, a mandatory question upon license purchase should get the true pulse of the majority.

[stevejedlenski]

ok so APR passes and you have all your 3x whatevers running around. now your neighbors are shooting all the good genetics and 2.5 year olds!!!!!! then we get an idea, only people that want to pass on deer are able to harvest a buck!!! YEAH!!! wait, this other neighbor shot the buck i wanted to shoot!!! ok now we will....

YOU WILL ALWAYS HAVE COMPETITION, YOU WILL ALWAYS SEE BUCKS SHOT, STOP WHINING AND HUNT. YOU MUST REALLY BE BLESSED IF YOU ARE ABLE TO PASS ON GOOD BUCKS.

YOU ARE NOT THE ONLY PERSON HUNTING!!!!

SOME PEOPLE WILL HUNT 3 YEARS WITHOUT BEING ABLE TO SHOOT A DEER, PUTING THIS REGULATION ON WILL LIMIT THEM EVEN MORE.



AS FAR AS THE "GOOD OF THE HERD" ITS ALREADY GOOD AND YOUR LIEING TO YOURSELF IF YOU SAY ITS NOT ABOUT ANTLERS (OTHERWISE WHY WOULD YOU PICK THE ANTLERS TO REGULATE?) SHOW ME SOMEONE THAT WOULD SHOOT A 6 POINT THAT IS FOR APR. OUR DEER HERD IS VERY HEALTHY UNLESS YOUR TALKING ABOUT THE BOONER BUCK HERD.

[The General]

I'm actually glad this topic was brought up because before this I had no idea this was being talked about as to implementing it across the whole state.  Now I've read a lot on the net about it and what other states have done, how it starts, and where it ends up, and that's not what I want pushed on people even if without knowing it I've been doing it anyway.  As I see it most of the people who want this have nice land to hunt and cant' be happy with another hunters idea of success, it does not fit your criteria so it must be wrong right? It has to be a big buck or no buck right? Just hunt your land how you want and get on with life, so what if the guy next door gets the buck you passed that's life deal with it. EHD, a car, predators or something else could kill it just as easy as the guy next door.  I'm also almost sure you have never slug hunted out here in west central MN where you may sit in the morning and evenings but the rest of the day you are not waiting for the deer to come to you.  You are out walking ditches, sloughs, groves, cornfields, etc.  Good luck telling how many points are on a running deer or how many inches is the inside spread.  Why should their tradition of deer hunting be lost? 

[beeker]

In my experience.. every big buck I ever harvested came only after I passed on that smaller buck/doe. bottom line is you can still only harvest one buck the math doesn't change regardless of the rack. you want a big buck it's going to take more then hunting opening morning.
you want a guaranteed trophy.. call a game farm and set up an appointment.

General.. I understand the "drive" but the safety issues at shooting at a running deer. I can't get on board with and refuse to do drives for that reason (don't get me wrong i'll push an area but theres no lining up with 6 other guys to drive it to a stander). one of my rules for the kids when they start hunting is there is no good shots on a running deer. let it run.

[The General]

Beeker I understand what you're saying but that is how it's done around here by almost everyone.  Until the age of 18, when I began bow hunting, I had never shot a standing deer.  In fact I hear of more people being shot walking to their deer stand by Buck fever then I ever do of posters shooting each other on the end of a drive.  But again this is how you choose to hunt and this is how they choose to hunt who is to say what is right or wrong just hunt how you enjoy it.  APR's as I see it will do away with the "drives" so maybe along with that we should take away stands and everyone has to hunt from the ground standing in the open so everyone can suffer together.  That should save a few bucks.   

[The General]

one of my rules for the kids when they start hunting is there is no good shots on a running deer. let it run.

Around here we call it giving the deer a fair chance.   

[deadeye]

Last week the Star Tribune had an article in the sports section about youth and shooting deer.  One story had a guy describe how his daughter shot a deer.  Three deer "running flat" and she used a single shot youth gun.  On her third shot one of the deer fell.  He was proud of the fact that she could hit a running deer in the head at "300" yards.  He went on to say several of them had range finders so he knows it was 300 yards.  Now, in my book you would have to lead the deer by 12 feet and aim about one foot high (using a 243 sighted in at 100 yds) to hit a deer at 300 yards running 25 mph.  I'm not saying the guy shouldn't be proud of his daughter shooting a deer, but that's not a good lesson to learn.   

[The General]

Last week the Star Tribune had an article in the sports section about youth and shooting deer.  One story had a guy describe how his daughter shot a deer.  Three deer "running flat" and she used a single shot youth gun.  On her third shot one of the deer fell.  He was proud of the fact that she could hit a running deer in the head at "300" yards.  He went on to say several of them had range finders so he knows it was 300 yards.  Now, in my book you would have to lead the deer by 12 feet and aim about one foot high (using a 243 sighted in at 100 yds) to hit a deer at 300 yards running 25 mph.  I'm not saying the guy shouldn't be proud of his daughter shooting a deer, but that's not a good lesson to learn.  

I'd call that lucky but who are any of us to say if this was a good lesson or not?  This is how things are done out here like it or not.  But what I bet you wouldn't hear is this guy coming on here and saying the type of hunting you do, where you sit in a tree waiting for a walking deer to come by, stop, then shoot is wrong and not much of a sporting challenge.  Not only that I can imagine the joy those 2 felt together and the memory made and something she will remember the rest of her life that she did with her dad.

[dakids]

I grew up in zone 4 and everyone around us did deer drives and our small group just sat all day.  We always shot way more deer with useually 1 shot kills.  Neighbors said they averages 28 shots for every deer dropped.  I say dropped becaused they wounded a LOT of deer that they never recovered. 

A couple of years ago I was invited out west by a friend to hunt the second weekend of the zone 4 season.  All we did was drives.  I was happy when sat was done.  I never saw a deer that wasn't running at top speed.3 deer were wounded and never recovered.  I hated the way they hunted and went home early. 

APR regs would stop some of the smaller bucks from getting shot and tagged. Cross tagging were the youth tags would get used on the smaller bucks would become the norm.  Most people i know that still hunt out west allow kids to use their tags on sat. only and will then use the kids tags for extra doe tags just to get their much needed VENISON.  It sucks that the kids don't use the tags themselves.  The parents say the kids still have fun because they get to shoot alot but that is not the intent of the youth tags.

[beeker]

fair chance or not.. every standing deer those kids have shot from their stands has resulted in meat in the freezer since none of them ended up more then 20yards away from point of impact. 

I've done my share of drives and now my fat butt is content to sit in a stand and wait. I think it's more over about hunter maturity. as you grow older hunting you learn to not take a bad shot or how to control yourself to let that spike/fork walk away. APR is more of a way of governing maturity for trophy hunters.

[The General]

I grew up in zone 4 and everyone around us did deer drives and our small group just sat all day.  We always shot way more deer with useually 1 shot kills.  Neighbors said they averages 28 shots for every deer dropped.  I say dropped becaused they wounded a LOT of deer that they never recovered.  

A couple of years ago I was invited out west by a friend to hunt the second weekend of the zone 4 season.  All we did was drives.  I was happy when sat was done.  I never saw a deer that wasn't running at top speed.3 deer were wounded and never recovered.  I hated the way they hunted and went home early.  

APR regs would stop some of the smaller bucks from getting shot and tagged. Cross tagging were the youth tags would get used on the smaller bucks would become the norm.  Most people i know that still hunt out west allow kids to use their tags on sat. only and will then use the kids tags for extra doe tags just to get their much needed VENISON.  It sucks that the kids don't use the tags themselves.  The parents say the kids still have fun because they get to shoot alot but that is not the intent of the youth tags.

Sitting while everyone around you is driving deer can be a really good strategy.  You guys probably have the other hunters to thank for your success.  The biggest point here is you did the type of hunting you enjoy and continue to have that opportunity.  Shouldn't others have the same?  What about everyone around you who did deer drives, and you yourself admitted you were in the minority, so who should have to change "everyone" or you?

As far as wounding animals this is just life.  Guess bow hunting should be eliminated as I'm guessing we probably have the highest percentage of this.  I have been lucky to never wound a deer bow hunting but I've flat out missed a few which just as easily could have been a wounded animal.  But I'm sure it will happen.

[The General]

fair chance or not.. every standing deer those kids have shot from their stands has resulted in meat in the freezer since none of them ended up more then 20yards away from point of impact.  

I've done my share of drives and now my fat butt is content to sit in a stand and wait. I think it's more over about hunter maturity. as you grow older hunting you learn to not take a bad shot or how to control yourself to let that spike/fork walk away. APR is more of a way of governing maturity for trophy hunters.

Which is your right and as it should be.  My dad on the other hand just turned 60.  When I grew up hunting we sat in the stand until 8AM and then a bit in the evening.  The rest of the day was spent with a group of people driving deer.  I could shoot a running deer at 50-100 yards on a dead run, with a slug, with out much of a problem as this is how it was done.  I don't know if my dad had ADHD or what but to this day he can not sit still in a stand.  We've been out west to Montana(Mule Deer and Antelope), Colorado (Elk), South Dakota, Alaska (Caribou).  He is on the move and chasing them down.  Even out Turkey hunting in South Dakota I had to practically beg him to do the traditional sit and wait Turkey hunting (the guy refuses to bobber fish too unless with the grand kids).  After about 2 sets he had enough and we were doing a spot a stalk.  Which we ended up getting our limit that way.  One of the biggest reasons I'm against this APR is because of him and how he enjoys to hunt.  He could afford to buy 100 acres of prime deer hunting land (which I've asked him to because access to good hunting places around here are harder to come by more and more every year) any where in the state of MN.  His response is the same, "Why would I want to go sit in a stand all day long?".  Point is, Like you've said too Beeker, is no need to regulate people just let them enjoy their hunt and the same to others.

[Stnmtz]

I'm gonna have to side with with dakids I have lived in SW MN most my life. I grew up taking a annual deer hunting trip to Montana.  Well 5 years ago i couldn't make the trip so I went slug hunting with a group of guys ( My first and LAST time slug hunting).  I seen way to many deer getting blasted away at way outta range using Kentucky windage.  It didn't even feel safe hunting, in my opinion i cant believe more people don't get shot each year.  As far as making the comparison of wounding deer bow and slug hunting there is a huge difference.  With a bow your not just slinging arrows it to the air hoping to hit something.  Yes any way you hunt there will be deer that get wounded  and are never found but the chance of this is alot greater if your not attempting a reasonable shot.  My 2 cents

P.S. I wont even bow hunt during slug season.

[The General]

Stn for sure it's your choice on the hunting you do but APR I feel would eliminate those people who like to "drive" deer or make a bunch of people criminals.

Most people here would think shooting at a running deer at any yardage not a reasonable shot.  I say hand me that shotgun and how many do we need.

 I do disagree in regards to your wounded animal comment.  I've heard plenty of times of people slinging arrows.  The story of the "Big one that was just a bit out of range but I just had to take a shot".  Bow hunters "however elite we think we are" make just as many bad decisions as the guy poking away with the Kentucky windage (that was awesome and made me laugh quite a bit and I hope you don't mind if I steal it from you for future use).  


P.S. I also think APR comes from people watching a few to many hunting shows where besides a few people nothing but the biggest are shown.  I also still say follow the money and who is actually pushing for this.  Get the Big racks so we have non residents wanting to come in a pay big money like Iowa.  We are so close to Iowa how come we can't get these millions of dollars like they do.  Then Sorry Joe Average that land you hunted for generations is now leased out to big outfitters if you want to hunt get out your check book.  Once Politicians are involved it's always about the money.

[beeker]

 it's always been about the money. the politicians don't get involved until someone writes them a check and tells them how to vote.

a slob hunter is a slob hunter regardless of what he's hunting with or hunting for. 

[FireRanger]

One thing that might be overlooked is many of us are benefitting from pushing/diving.Where I hunt we have 100's of acres at our disposal, however depending on when I get on stand, I'm either pushing deer to the guys across the way or they are pushing them to me. Unless you are hunting in the middle of    no where, deer are usually being moved by someone somewhere somehow at sometime, depending on their nerves. My 2 cents.

[Stnmtz]

OK ..... i should add to my last post.  Yes i would like away to perserve younger bucks because im not afraid to admit to would love to have a getter chance to shoot bigger bucks.
Im I for more goverment regulations?  No
Do I think that "educating people" will work? No
So ya basically if i wanna shoot i nice buck ill be spending $$$$$$$$$$ to get a buck tag for south dakota or montana

[Stnmtz]

Most people here would think shooting at a running deer at any yardage not a reasonable shot.  I say hand me that shotgun and how many do we need.

Most people cant make that shot though.  Im just like you i have always had a natural talent when it comes to shooting. 

P.S. The one year i didn't hunt during slug season I used my .44 mag pistol and shot more deer than anyone in are party that year

[mathews4ever]

OK ..... i should add to my last post.  Yes i would like away to perserve younger bucks because im not afraid to admit to would love to have a getter chance to shoot bigger bucks.
Im I for more goverment regulations?  No
Do I think that "educating people" will work? No
So ya basically if i wanna shoot i nice buck ill be spending $$$$$$$$$$ to get a buck tag for south dakota or montana

You could always try hard work. Guys like John Eberhardt and Dan Infalt shoot monster bucks with more regularity than guys that "manage" their land and those guys hunt land that is available to the public. John Eberhardt hunts in the Michigan UP, which has one of the highest hunter densities in the county and he still manages to do it in places that most other hunters fail to even shoot a deer.

Regulation is not the answer, it is hard work. I am as guilty of it as the next guy when it comes to being complacent when it comes to scouting/hunting, but I am sure not going to demand more regulation to make up for my LAZY behavior. I, like many of you make the conscious decision to not put in the hard work. That is my fault and mine alone, not the guy on the neighboring property because he shot a small buck. It is time that everybody gets off their high horses, laces up their hunting boots and goes out looking for monster bucks. We are supposed to be HUNTING these deer, not growing them like cattle.



P.S. I am not trying to single you out Stnmtz, your post just represents how many APR advocates feel.