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Author Topic: Switiching sides on APR  (Read 59156 times)

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Offline Dstark5625

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I always like it when a hunter tells me "You can't eat the antlers." But when he has a choice between a young buck and a doe or two the hunter shoots the young buck...

And I don't see the problem with that.  If those were the only 2 deer I was going to see that year I'd be happy with the meat and the small trophy to put on my garage wall.  It all comes down to people having different priorities when hunting and having the freedom to shoot what is allowed in their certain area. 

Offline Bear Creek Bucks

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I do. When you have a 140lb doe in front of you and a 110lb forkie, choose to shoot the forkie instead of the doe, and then talk about how "Antlers don't taste that good." Makes me laugh.
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Offline Cody Gruchow

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its about the hunt...good chance that 140lb doe is carrying fawns....so your really shooting 3 deer. which "makes me laugh" and you never know each of those fawns could of turned out to be trophys in 4 years...
« Last Edit: November 11/29/12, 06:06:40 PM by Cody Gruchow »

Offline BigTeddyStyle

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I'm getting in this conversation a little late, so let me paste in a document that I have prepared for situations like this.  I emphasize the part about the compromise.  To me, this is one of the key points that we need to understand.  We are all hunters and we have the anti-hunters looking at us and loving the fact that we are fighting amongst each other.  They see this as an opportunity to drive us apart.  Let's not let them dammit!  Let's meet in the middle and get along for cripes sake!

What are Antler Point Restrictions?
An Antler Point Restriction (APR) is a restriction (either mandated or voluntary) that says that a buck needs to have a certain number of points to harvest.  Typically, this restriction is a minimum number of points on one side of a buck’s antlers.  The APR is one method in which one of the cornerstones of Quality Deer Management can be achieved.  This cornerstone is the protection of yearling bucks.  While a voluntary program may focus more of it’s restriction on restricting the harvest of bucks to a minimum age (e.g. 3 years old or better), an APR that is mandated by a regulation is typically aimed at protecting 50 – 75% of yearling bucks.  This is done in order to not be too restrictive and not allow the harvest of 2 ½ year old bucks.  Currently 23 states, including Minnesota, now have some form of APR in some portion of their state.  The APR in SE Minnesota is currently set by the DNR at a minimum of 4 points on one side.

What will APR achieve?
APR has both short and long term effects.  The short-term effect (2 years or less) results in a much higher number of 2 ½ year old bucks in the herd.  The first year, very few bucks will be taken and it will seem like a negative thing to some.  The second year, you will immediately see a big spike in the number of 2 year old bucks.  This 2 year old buck is a very nice buck, and to many, this is a bigger deer than they have ever shot.  This means that there will be some immediate gratification to those who are quite happy shooting a 2 year old buck.  In the second year, you should see some of those 2 year olds make it to one more year and at the age of 3, you start getting into that classification of a buck that is nearing maturity and sports a pretty nice rack.  It is the long-term effect what has most people excited.  In the third year and beyond, some of those younger bucks that were passed as yearlings start to make it through to 4 years old and beyond.  This can make for an exciting hunt, as outlined in the Biology Behind APR article.  Again, for those perfectly happy with shooting a 2 year old buck can do so and with this restriction, there will certainly be an ample amount of bucks in the population to shoot.

So it does take a little sacrifice the first year or two, but after that, even those not interested in the rack will really not see a decline in opportunities.  In fact, this is what most people believe the voluntary part of APR comes in.  Now, if you want to, you may further pass on these 2 year old bucks.  This is a nice compromise and is described below.

What are the criticisms of APR?
APR often gets criticized for being a trophy regulation and while it certainly can produce big bucks and many of it’s biggest supporters are hunters who seek a large antlered buck, APR by itself is most definitely not a trophy regulation.  In fact, if all everyone ever did was shoot every legal buck they saw, all APR would achieve is the harvest of a bunch of 2 year old bucks scoring around something like 70 – 100.  This is far from what most would consider a trophy.  What APR does, is allows anyone who wants to pass on the smaller bucks and manage for larger deer, to “jump start” their program.  Simply protecting yearling bucks allows them to see deer regularly get to 3+ years of age so long as they don’t shoot them when they are 2 years old.  Again, if you have no interest in managing for larger buck, then by all means, go ahead and shoot the 2 year old.  You will have plenty of opportunities over the long term as APR has a chance to work.  Heck, you may even get lucky and stumble across one of those deer that many of your neighbors may have “managed” to the age of 4+.

One other criticisms about APR is that by harvesting only the largest yearling bucks, you are killing the best genetics.  Truth is, this simply is not the case.  While the theory is understandable, there is evidence provided by some studies that indicates yearlings with spikes and forks actually have more potential as far as rack size as they mature than their larger yearling counterparts.  While there is not conclusive evidence on this, the simple take away here is that we should never judge a buck by its first rack.

Why should you be told what to shoot?
Another criticism of APR is that the opponents say that they don’t feel they should be restricted by someone else as to what they harvest.  They don’t want anyone to tell them what to shoot.  Try to take a look at it from the other point of view.  From the standpoint of the APR supporters, they might say the opposite.  They may say that someone who shoots every buck that walks by is actually dictating what they can shoot.  By shooting yearling bucks, those wanting to see bigger bucks can never shoot the deer they want.  In fact, if they had it their way, a regulation that limits people to shoot bucks under the age of 4 or a certain antler score would be implemented.  If everyone thought like these latter individuals, we could certainly make the restriction this strict, however, it is obvious that this is not fair and instead, we find a compromise.  This is one of the first things we learn as children.  That is to find a solution somewhere in the middle that we can all stand to live with.  No, it’s not easy at first for those against APR to pass on most yearling bucks.  No, those for APR will probably not shoot a 2 year old or big yearling.  But……this APR regulation is something we can hopefully learn to agree on and it is some sort of compromise where we meet in the middle. 

In the end, everyone WILL shoot a bigger buck whether it is a 2 year old basket rack 8 pointer, or a 5 year old giant.  Nobody can say they don’t enjoy shooting a big racked buck.  It’s what drives many to go deer hunting and even if you are a “meat hunter”, you probably at some point, dreamed about the one day you shot the “big one”.  So often, hunting for horns gets criticized.  It is OK to go out there looking for a big rack!  Many people talk about it like it is a bad thing.  Sure there are some instances where trophy hunting has been associated with unethical behavior, however this is an instance where it is an exception and not the rule.  There are plenty of individuals that who shoot every small buck they see and exhibit unethical (and illegal) behavior as well.  Nobody should ever have to apologize for wanting a big racked buck.  Those wanting a bigger buck likely respect deer and the outdoors as much as the next.  In fact, they are typically the ones most passionate about the sport they love and see being in the outdoors as a very rewarding experience whether or not they ever even tag a deer.  So whose to say who is right.  We all have a right to be outdoors and make our minds up about why we are there.  This compromise allows everyone to win.

What will APR do to deer populations over time?
Generally, APR will put more pressure on antlerless deer, however, not likely as much as in the intensive harvest zones that have been in place in years past.  What you will likely see is a more stable population over time without some of the big fluctuations from year to year.  You will see a more balance buck to doe ratio and a more balanced buck age structure.

Is APR supported by hunters?
Through numerous surveys, the DNR has determined that well over 50% of all hunters in Minnesota (the exact amount varies by region) favor a regulation that allows for more mature bucks.  In fact, the last survey in SE Minnesota showed less than 30% opposition to a regulation that favors mature bucks.  When deciding which regulation to choose in order to accomplish this, the hunters had a hard time making a choice, however, APR received the most support, especially among those who wanted to see more mature bucks.  We have learned through the experience in other states and our experience in our state parks, that acceptance increases over time once hunters have had a chance to see it in action.  Some people need to simply see something before they believe and this certainly seems to be the case with APR.  In this case, the results speak for themselves, however, it is likely that those on the fence start to understand how easy it is to make this decision in the field.  If we can learn to identify ducks and pheasants as they fly, we can learn to understand which bucks are legal.  It actually becomes instinctive and a bonus, it actually leads to a safer hunt because we need to be more sure of our target.

As you can see, APR is a good idea.  It is supported by a majority of Minnesota hunters, and it has proven to be quite successful in other states.  Please read the other document about the Biology of APR for more information on why Minnesota needs APR.  You will see that Minnesota is simply way behind the other states in the management of its deer.  We have been doing essentially the same thing for over 30 years and it’s time for a change.



Offline BigTeddyStyle

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Here's a piece on the Biology of APR

The Biology of APR

In areas of Minnesota where APR is not implemented, you can expect 70 – 80 percent of all bucks to be harvested.  This is similar to other states such as Missouri and Pennsylvania prior to APR implementation.  A majority of these bucks harvested are yearlings.  In fact, we are among the leaders in the nation in percentage of yearling bucks in the total harvest.  In 2008, we actually led the nation in yearling buck harvest at 67% of our total harvest consisting of yearling bucks.  The 3 year APR trial in zone 3 has brought this down some, but we are still among the national leaders due to other parts of the state that are still under traditional management.  Data from other states shows that yearling buck harvest goes from 50+% to under 20%.  There is no reason we can’t expect similar results in Minnesota.

So what does all this mean biologically speaking?  First of all, with such a large number of bucks harvested, you get very few bucks breeding more than one year due to them being killed.  Because of this, you have a lot of inexperienced bucks doing the majority of the breeding and they never establish a hierarchy.  They simply all take part in the breeding activities.  With APR, you start to see a buck age structure that is more balanced across several age classes.  This happens because 75% of all yearlings survive the deer  season and they are allowed to breed more than one year.  Additionally, these older bucks now start to exhibit their dominance and their aggression can actually suppress testosterone levels in the younger bucks and keep them from breeding.  This does two things.  First of all, it assures that the yearling bucks spend their time building up energy reserves to help them grow healthier in future years rather than expending their energy reserves on breeding.  Secondly, this hierarchy that develops allows bucks to establish a breeding pecking order, and the stronger and more superior bucks will do more of the breeding, again creating a healthier herd in the long run. Yearlings will still breed even with a balanced buck age structure, however, it will be significantly less than when the age structure is skewed strongly towards yearlings.

One theory states that when you have a better balanced buck to doe ratio, the breeding phase will be shorter and more intense, resulting in a fawn drop that is condensed the following spring.  This allows for better fawn survival because fawn predators are simply overwhelmed by the sheer number of fawns.  There is not however, significant data from the other APR states to allow us to understand the true impact of this yet.

From a biology standpoint, one thing that you can expect to see is very intense pre-rut and rut activity.  This is all more natural behavior and the way deer populations interacted before we started shooting all the bucks.  You will see more buck fights and scraping activity.  Bucks will get more aggressive towards each other because of the increased competition from experienced bucks.  If you ever tried using scents, rattling, and other forms of calling with minimal or no success, you should see a big change in this.  The increased age of the bucks coupled with the increased competition will suddenly provide you with deer that are willing to respond to these tactics.

Offline mathews4ever

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I love how you said that we should meet in the middle and by middle you meant give in and let the APR crowd railroad everybody else. I sure didn't see any compromise coming from the APR crowd in your little speech there.
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Offline mathews4ever

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I would still like to see a real study done on this subject. The info that Deadeye and bigteddystyle posted undoubtedly had some truth in it, but EVERYTHING has exceptions and I didn't see any of that info in what was posted. Why can't somebody post a link to an official report from a study done on this subject.  I think it is rather unethical to hand pick the favorable bits of a study and prance around telling everyone that it is gospel.

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Offline Cody Gruchow

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the other point of view is they can pass those bucks on there own free will opposed to the pro apr making it a law saying they have to... meeting in the middle would be taking a survey for every individual zone and if the zone is pro APR then make it a regualation for that zone. and if its against it then dont make it law in that area...

Offline deadeye

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mathews4ever,

I can't seem to get a direct link but the report can be found by googling

"pennsylvania antler point restriction"

The top response is a PDF file.  You will see that I did not pick and chose, but did post the entire report.  Now, I'm sure you can find another report that may not present APR in the same light but it's the one I found.
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Offline deadeye

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BigTeddyStyle,
Welcome to the site.  You just posted in one of our most controversial threads.  Your post appears to be a collection of your thoughts and feelings on the subject.  Where do draw your opinions from? 
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Offline mathews4ever

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I appreciate the response deadeye and I will look it up. I understand where you are coming from too with the idea that multiple studies on this subject will come out with different results. That is why I want factual info on this subject because as we all know the study reports always seem to favor the opinion of whoever is funding the study.
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Offline BigTeddyStyle

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I draw my thoughts from my training as a Wildlife Biologist and the years of personal time I have dedicated to this issue.  I have had many discussion with experts in this area and have come to know most of them very well.  I do mean compromise when we talk about an APR and I think I spelled out my reason why I believe this is the "middle ground" in my response.  In fact, it is more on the side of those against it than it is on the side of those for it.  Let's put it this way.  We could either compromise, or we could go with the majority and simply go with a much stricter form of restriction.  The majority of Minnesota deer hunters want to see APR.  It's as simple as that.  The compromise is the APR.  The voluntary portion is passing on legal bucks to allow them to get even older.  I am not opposed to a survey in each and every area of MN.  Where there is not hunter support, we don't expand the APR rule.  We live in a democratic society, so why would anyone be against a system that does what the majority want?

Offline stevejedlenski

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Quote
APR often gets criticized for being a trophy regulation and while it certainly can produce big bucks and many of it’s biggest supporters are hunters who seek a large antlered buck, APR by itself is most definitely not a trophy regulation.

Quote
What APR does, is allows anyone who wants to pass on the smaller bucks and manage for larger deer, to “jump start” their program.

taken from same paragraph and sounds like trophy regs to me, because it is. no getting around it. all your argument stated is that it allows bucks to get older (to be harvested older) like as a trophy or to better ones chance at a trophy.

IN REALITY I THINK THAT MN WOULD BENEFIT MORE FROM MOVING THE FIREARMS SEASON OUTSIDE OF THE NORMAL RUT PHASE AS THATS WHEN ITS EASIEST TO SHOOT BUCKS, ESPECIALLY THE LITTLE ONES RUNING ALL OVER THE COUNTRYSIDE.
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Offline The General

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BTS did you read my post on pg6 where wildlife biologists in Mississippi said after 14 years of apr it is not working.
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Offline Mayfly

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BTS did you read my post on pg6 where wildlife biologists in Mississippi said after 14 years of apr it is not working.

I'm not a biologist but have read a lot of surveys and studies on the subject. For whatever reason it does not take hold everywhere. Not sure what the science behind that is.

Offline Mayfly

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mathews4ever,

I can't seem to get a direct link but the report can be found by googling

"pennsylvania antler point restriction"

The top response is a PDF file.  You will see that I did not pick and chose, but did post the entire report.  Now, I'm sure you can find another report that may not present APR in the same light but it's the one I found.


Here you go deadeye.... Found it and posting it here. File is below.

Offline dakids

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taken from same paragraph and sounds like trophy regs to me, because it is. no getting around it. all your argument stated is that it allows bucks to get older (to be harvested older) like as a trophy or to better ones chance at a trophy.

IN REALITY I THINK THAT MN WOULD BENEFIT MORE FROM MOVING THE FIREARMS SEASON OUTSIDE OF THE NORMAL RUT PHASE AS THATS WHEN ITS EASIEST TO SHOOT BUCKS, ESPECIALLY THE LITTLE ONES RUNING ALL OVER THE COUNTRYSIDE.
Steve why are you against APR if it is a TROPHY REG and then turn around and want the rifle season moved out of the rut?  THAT IS A TROPHY REG.  Everybody that I have ever listened to that wanted to move the gun season out of the rut was also an archery hunter that wanted to hunt the rut themselves with their bows.  I don't think to many bow hunters would like to have their season stopped around the middle of Oct. 


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Offline HD

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bigteddystyle posted that this is what the majority wants, where are those statistics?
« Last Edit: November 11/30/12, 08:17:32 AM by HD »
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Offline mathews4ever

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taken from same paragraph and sounds like trophy regs to me, because it is. no getting around it. all your argument stated is that it allows bucks to get older (to be harvested older) like as a trophy or to better ones chance at a trophy.

IN REALITY I THINK THAT MN WOULD BENEFIT MORE FROM MOVING THE FIREARMS SEASON OUTSIDE OF THE NORMAL RUT PHASE AS THATS WHEN ITS EASIEST TO SHOOT BUCKS, ESPECIALLY THE LITTLE ONES RUNING ALL OVER THE COUNTRYSIDE.
Steve why are you against APR if it is a TROPHY REG and then turn around and want the rifle season moved out of the rut?  THAT IS A TROPHY REG.  Everybody that I have ever listened to that wanted to move the gun season out of the rut was also an archery hunter that wanted to hunt the rut themselves with their bows.  I don't think to many bow hunters would like to have their season stopped around the middle of Oct. 




He suggested moving the firearm season as an alternative to APRs to save a few young bucks and still allow people the freedom to choose to shoot any deer they please. It helps if you listen to what people say instead of just hearing what you want.
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Offline The General

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BTS did you read my post on pg6 where wildlife biologists in Mississippi said after 14 years of apr it is not working.

I'm not a biologist but have read a lot of surveys and studies on the subject. For whatever reason it does not take hold everywhere. Not sure what the science behind that is.

What I took out of it was it did work in the beginning and then just like others have posted that all the good genetics where then shot and crap deer were left to breed.  Then the next fix (after the gov screwed it up like usual) is to guess on measurements. 

I think the best line of this entire thread is the "lets have feeders so everyone can see deer, count the points, and have a standing shot".  That one still makes me chuckle.
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Offline BigTeddyStyle

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BTS did you read my post on pg6 where wildlife biologists in Mississippi said after 14 years of apr it is not working.

I'm not a biologist but have read a lot of surveys and studies on the subject. For whatever reason it does not take hold everywhere. Not sure what the science behind that is.

There may be some instances where APR's are modified after some feedback, but this is a good thing.  I don't think any of us expect to set them and leave them in place for 30+ years like the current regulation format has.  23 states currently have some form of APR, so it must be working.  If you look at the most recent states of Missouri and Pennsylvania, you will find that these states are very similar to Minnesota in landscape and pre-APR survey results.  They have been extremely successful there and the biologist in Missouri (Lonnie Hanson) has recently been quoted as saying that the popularity is now so high that he would not want to be the person who tries to take APR away.  In addition, I would argue that the "high grading" issue is not real.  I have recently read a couple studies that show that spikes and four pointer actually have more potential as a mature buck than there 6 and larger point yearling counterparts.

Offline BigTeddyStyle

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Quote
APR often gets criticized for being a trophy regulation and while it certainly can produce big bucks and many of it’s biggest supporters are hunters who seek a large antlered buck, APR by itself is most definitely not a trophy regulation.

Quote
What APR does, is allows anyone who wants to pass on the smaller bucks and manage for larger deer, to “jump start” their program.

I have no problem with people bringing up the issue of APR as a trophy regulation, as I can easily defend it by simply saying that if all anyone ever did was shoot what APR legally allowed, we would never have a buck get past 2 years old (or very few anyway).  So to say that APR is, by itself, a trophy regulation, is simply inaccurate.  Where I get upset, is when some thinks it is wrong for me to pass on 2 and 3 year old deer voluntarily.  I just don't get why someone feels like I should apologize for wanting to shoot a big buck.  It is just ridiculous.  I do a lot of work to manage deer on my land and if I want to pass on young deer as part of that, I will.  In the past 8 years, I have planted over 60,000 trees, 30 acres of native grasses, 100 acres of food plots, and done several timber standd improvements.  So if I want to add APR as a nother "tool" in my bucket, I will, but to say that APR has helped me to raise a trophy buck and discount all the other things I have done is just plain ignorant!
« Last Edit: November 11/30/12, 02:02:42 PM by BigTeddyStyle »

Offline BigTeddyStyle

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bigteddystyle posted that this is what the majority wants, where are those statistics?

I get these from the MN DNR website mostly, but they are also summary reports that experts from the DNR have sent me.  They summarize the surveys and attitudes of deer hunters in the state of Minnesota and are based on very scientifically based surveys.

Offline Mayfly

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What I took out of it was it did work in the beginning and then just like others have posted that all the good genetics where then shot and crap deer were left to breed.  Then the next fix (after the gov screwed it up like usual) is to guess on measurements.  

Look at the big picture.. if we are already killing anywhere from 65 - 75% of our yearling bucks do you think that only the 25% that survive are the best genetics? Saying that APR will be guilty of high grading and depletion of good genetics just doesn't stand up. Doesn't even come close to making sense.  :scratch:

All APR does is let the bucks grow another year and they get killed at 2.5 years. You don't see quit as high rates as the yearling buck kill numbers because they become smarter and a bit more elusive but the high grading argument makes no sense.

Are you suggesting that only the best 2.5 year old bucks will get shot? That doesn't make sense either. If people aren't concerned about antlers it shouldn't matter, all 4 point side of better deer should die right? Brown, 4 points on one side and its down! But you are suggesting that even the average hunter would be more apt to shoot bigger bucks?? Geez... now i'm even more confused!  :banghead:

Or maybe you are saying that ALL bucks that make it past the first year or two will be shot and the only deer left will be genetically inferior 10 inch spikers walking around. Gosh, thats not going to make much sense either if you talk to a local deer farmer. I've toured 3 and at each one they sold off their trophy bucks but they guarded their prize doe with fence and lock. Recent studies suggest that the prize does are contributing more than a prized buck.

 :deer:
« Last Edit: November 11/30/12, 03:13:14 PM by MNO »

Offline HD

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bigteddystyle posted that this is what the majority wants, where are those statistics?

I get these from the MN DNR website mostly, but they are also summary reports that experts from the DNR have sent me.  They summarize the surveys and attitudes of deer hunters in the state of Minnesota and are based on very scientifically based surveys.

Would you mind posting it here for all to read?
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Offline mathews4ever

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Recent studies suggest that the prize does are contributing more than a prized buck.

If that is true, then why are we protecting the bucks when the does are clearly the key to a healthy herd and those giant bucks you guys want?

I can't wait to see how you guys skew this to favor your OPINION.
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Offline mathews4ever

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bigteddystyle posted that this is what the majority wants, where are those statistics?

I get these from the MN DNR website mostly, but they are also summary reports that experts from the DNR have sent me.  They summarize the surveys and attitudes of deer hunters in the state of Minnesota and are based on very scientifically based surveys.

Would you mind posting it here for all to read?

I second that. If the DNR is going to change the laws for you guys the least they can do is make the information they have on the subject open to the public.
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Offline BigTeddyStyle

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Below is the link to the DNR website that archives the surveys.  They used to have the 2009 surveys there too, but when they changed their website format, they disappeared.  I have them saved on my computer, but the file is nearly 20MB (which is maybe why they don't exist on the website anymore).  I will try carve the pertinent information out of the pdf document and post.

http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/deer/hunt_surveys_archive.html
« Last Edit: November 11/30/12, 06:29:50 PM by BigTeddyStyle »

Offline The General

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No mno what I'm saying I'd in Mississippi they scrapped apr and now you have to guess on measurements.  That will ruin hunting for the way most people around me hunt.  Which is why i say what makes the type of hunting you and i do the only way to hunt?  I believe apr will ruin this to.  Hard to count antlers on a running deer.  
« Last Edit: November 11/30/12, 06:50:21 PM by The General »
Eastwood v. Wayne Challenge Winner 2011

The Boogie Man may check his closet for John Wayne but John Wayne checks under his bed for Clint Eastwood

Offline BigTeddyStyle

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OK, I don't have the right software on my home computer to carve it out, so I uploaded it to the site below.  It is the top file.  Go through and look at some of the other files as well.  If you want to get updates from me, join the group.  Also, join the Facebook page.

http://www.mndeeralliance.com/files/?msid=1354322291.9289