Ice travel, your lake or mine?

[jigglestick]

this was touched on in another thread and I decided to make a topic out of it.

the old controversy of who has rights to the lake and access points etc.
we all know that the lake is state property and open to travel by anyone without restriction, cept for boundaries like state, us/canada, and or indian reservation lines such as the case on upper red lake.

to create revenue, the resorts on many many lakes plow and maintain roads and bridges on the lake. they plow out to areas often times to have access for their rental houses.
while doing this, they keep areas of the lake open for customers who use their access.
in essence they cordon off areas of the lake, staking a claim, if you will of a portion of the lake.
rights to these areas of the lakes become patrolled and gaurded.
people traveling onto these areas of the lakes without "proper" road access passes are often told to leave the area.
some are threatened.
the belief of ownership is in my opinion out of hand.
the restriction of free travel amounts to no more than holding an area of lake up for ransome.
while plowing the roads, they create burms, which in heavy  snowfall seasons will cause the ice to fracture creating a pressure ridge.
I have seen this several times, and once, the ridge followed the road bank for eight miles.
this effectively closed off an area of the lake, leaving little option but to pay more than one access fee to the lake in order to have access to all the public water.
we can see the argument here. there is law, writen but often ignored and unwritten law.

the way I see it, plowing a road out for paying customers is a priveledge.
if a road is going to be maintained in any fashion that will restrict free travel, then a regulation should be put in place that they should create a safe crossing area for every half mile of road.
these areas should be opened up and maintained safe as long as the road exsists and creates a travel burdon.

the access fee should be for the private land crossing that allows one to enter the lake.

the resorts pray for enough snow to create these partitions. this makes patroling the area less nessecary as free travel isnt possible anyway with deep snow conditions.

on the other hand, it is nice that someone is out there creating the bridges and crossings to naturaly bad ice conditions.
it takes alot of work and for this they should be rewarded, but keep in mind, the bridge building isnt a right, it is a priveledge.
who owns the bridge when it is in place?
who owns a portable deerstand when it is placed on public property and left?
that has been asked and answered before, it is public property.

I would not use a bridge put in by a resort that I did not pay access at, but that is me and some may not see it that way. I have the utmost respect for the work that goes into maintianing the road and bridge, but we cant loose sight that this is PUBLIC WATER!
harrass me and I will be dialing 911 faster that you can utter your second expletive at me.

should I buy eight different road access passes because there are eight different access points on a lake?
wouldn't want to upset anyone by tresspassing on "their part of the lake"

not to single anyone out, but a resort owner said in this forum that if he saw anyone driving to fast on the lake, he would give them their ten dollars back and tell them to leave.   ....excuse me? leave what? my lake? this public lake?
or your self claimed portion of the lake?
I know the reasons he stated this and with stated behavior, they would deserve no less than a whoopin, but who is anyone, to say who can or can not remain on any body of water?

so, let the s*** fly. lets see who besides me can put their foot in their mouth.
oppinions? ideas?
lets have it.

[Woody]

Not to sound like a "sheep" following the shepherd, I'd have to agree with everything you said.  And you said it well! 

My opinion is: with some it is getting extremely competitive almost to the point where it could scare away customers.  I hope it doesn't get to that point though.  To me alot of it boils down to respect and common sense. 2 things that are becoming more and more rare nowdays!  (Almost) Everyone is out for themselves, screw anyone else!  It's a sad shape the world is in!

[HOTROD]

he good post jigglestick

a couple years ado a buddy and i fished URL and were set up aways from what turned out to be rental houses.  the owner of the rentals came over to us and started yelling at us and telling us we didnt have the right to be on his roads (he plowed a road off of hillmans to get to his rentals).   

[WoodChuck]

 ???   no differant then plowing a road to your private deer stand on public property and some one else using it to access their site ! this is just bull crap plain and simple, for no man can claim any free land or water open to the public for free enterprise and recieve payment for up keep on public domain. for if this is the way to make a dollar everyone will start plowing the highways and by ways and set up a toll gate to collect for services rendered? to my way of seeing where it is all going to is it will be illeagal to plow roads for fishing or profit on any waters . when i plow a road on gull lake to wilson bay  or steamboat bay ,it dont bother me to have others use this . but what is good is when people stop and hand you a 5 or 10 dollar bill and say thanks for the easy pass.   in other words, what are 4 wheeler atv for or snowmobiles , to park at a dnr boat access point,unload and head out . if this is what RED LAKE IS LIKE YOU CAN HAVE IT , A BUNCH OF GREEDY CRY BABIES!                         
                               WOODCHUCK    ::)

[Fishahollik]

If it is public waters such as Mille Lacs or Winni and not ceded territory such as the majority of URL, I will go where I damn well please. As stated, you (resort owner) don't own the lake, maybe the access you could charge for using, but once I am on the ice, fugoff.

Here is the next issue. I have seen several public accesses baricaded with large cement road dividers during the winter on Mille Lacs leaving the resorts as the ONLY option to get on the lake.  WHo puts these there and is it legal? I know I'll be finding a way around them because if I'm not using the resort, they aren't  getting my money.

[Bufflehead]

Quote
"rights to these areas of the lakes become patrolled and gaurded.
people traveling onto these areas of the lakes without "proper" road access passes are often told to leave the area.
some are threatened."
------------------------------------

 What is this world comming to?

 Just try and kick me off the public waters

 On another note, I WILL NEVER, EVER PAY TO ACCESS A PUBLIC LAKE  thats why I own snowmobilies and ATV's. I will access where it's free and fish where ever I dam well please.

 Pay access is just one more way..the pay hunting and fishing plan, that included Only the rich is getting a grip on us sportsman and women.

 If you pay, they will continue to charge, be it hunting Pheasants in South Dakota, Ducks in Arkansas, Mule deer in Montana, salmon in Alaska...or Walleyes on URL or Mille Lacs

 Some resorts have even gone to working on townships, counties and the state to restrict any free parking near the lake to force you to have to use their pay access's...It's a sad deal

 and they wonder why there's a decline in new/young hunters and fisherman taking up the outdoors...it's right there in front of their nose..but they can't see it.

 

   

[jigglestick]

I just thought about this, but as part of the reward for paying a fee, is if you have trouble, there is someone to come rescue you. if you use hilmans road, say you get hung up in rough ice or your truck wont start, buddy will help you like a brother. I have never seen him accept payment for this other than the access fee either. not saying that you shouldnt offer.
I have been to another resort where sure they will help you out, but tipping is recomended and hardly ever turned down.
there are bennefits to using a maintained road.
(this is the part where I find myself contradicting myself)
a maintained road freezes thicker, thus it becomes a safer place to travel.
on the other hand, hundreds of rigs pounding accross it only stress crack the crap out of it. this is really eveident at crossings on ice heaves.
having markers on the ice that designate a road is re-assuring to the people who are not all that particularily fond of ice travel anyway. they are also a welcome sight when a norwester blows in and you are trying to get to shore.

[meadowcreek]

I know we are talking about Red Lake, and more importantly the Waskish side.  Not every access owner behaves in that manner.  I choose the southside to work out of.  More importantly JR's Access.

All the guides are very friendly.  We all share where the bite is hot.  It is not uncommon for one guide to be helping out anothers customers.  getting bait from shore, drilling a few holes when an auger goes down, sharing equipment.

I think this is how it should be.  I personally hate the attitude that is coming out of Waskish from some of the bussiness owners.  I think it hurts everyone. 

The lake has been tough for bridges this year.  The cracks are moving all the time.  The guys work for their 8 dollars, but they also have to realize that their crack is going to open wide some day very soon, so they should let the other accesses customers cross when their is a problem.

It shouldn't have to be a law to be nice.  Just good neighbors!  Everyone up here depends on the fisherman.  Without you guys coming up to fish we would have very little services or bussiness in the area.  I'm very appreciative of all the outdoorsmans that come to visit us, and I'm always willing to help.  If I don't have what you are looking for I'll go out of my way to find you the right accomidations, and most time I follow up the phone calls to make sure you found what you were looking for.

[Bufflehead]

meadowcreek, now thats what I like to hear and see. We could use more business owners like yourself.

 If I stay somewhere, like a resort. I will pay for my services. If I enter a public lake at a boat ramp or another free access without treaspassing. I'm not going to ask anybody if I can fish any certain area of the public waters or if I can drive on a plowed road. They choose to plow it on public waters and as somebody already pointed out. Thats like having a deer stand on public land. It's anybodies to use(not that I would) but thats the risk they take.

 

[schwinger]

Good topic I have thought about this many times
   The only thing the resorts have a right to is the access to the lake not the roads on the lake itself. If you drive in on a public access and get to a road on the lake you have every right to be on it. The resorts do alot of work to keep those roads up and running so in my opinion it would be nice to give them something for the use like stop in for some beers or dinner but if you don't have a pass to be on "their" roads you will likely get yelled at.
    I think of it like snowmobile trails almost any bar with the room will allow you to park in there lot free of charge and unload because they know you will be coming back through and likely stop for a beer or food. I know they don't pay for the trails unless they donate to the local clubs but the idea is the same if you use there access you are more likely to spend money in there establishment.
   I agree the fees have gotten out of hand I think the resort I am at charges something like $15 for access. They also expect someone staying at my house as a guest to pay the access fee if they drive out seperate from me. Thats just rediculous and makes me as well as the guest think twice about spending any additional money in his restaurant.

[iceman]

1 more question..

after i pay my road fee are they responsible for me ?
if i fall though the ice on there road are they going to pay t have me pulled out ?

ok it was more then 1 question..

[Bufflehead]

 Great question!

 "This should be good"

 

[Fishahollik]

I only wish I was wealthy enough to be able to sacrifice my F150, drive out on a road set up by a resort that I paid to acces, then afford a good enough attorney to take it to court when I fell thru. My guess is, you'd certainly have to take them to court.

[JohnWester]

1 more question..

after i pay my road fee are they responsible for me ?
if i fall though the ice on there road are they going to pay t have me pulled out ?

ok it was more then 1 question..

i was just going to say the same thing...  if I pay a fee to use their access, and I go accross "their" bridge and it happens to break while I am crossing it and wrecks my transmission, can I expect them to pay to get my truck fixed?

[GRIZ]

I wouldn't want to waste my money on a law suit. I certainly wouldn't want to waste the time provoking one either, especially to someone who is just trying to make a living.

I remember hearing a couple yrs ago that a resort was plowing in wheel houses that had not gotten on the lake through there place. That was not right, but he got fined for it too. This was not on URL.

It basically comes down to ethics or morals as someone had posted b4. Right and wrong. We don't need to have the politicians dictating all of this to us in the form of more specific regulations. There are enough of them the way it is.

[Bufflehead]

what most of this comes down to is, this is only being discussed because of the low snow conditions we are facing this year.

 People can travel across areas that normally would have snow that is too deep to get across and getting on a road plowed by another resort.

 If we get back to a normal winter next year, it will most likely be a problem few and far between

[Fishahollik]

I posted this same scenario on another forum. The sheep there mostly think its common courtesy to pay the resort for use of the road.

Id like To pose another sub question to this question, and Buff, this could apply to this winter or a winter with 10 ft of snow..


What if I decide I want to fish a particular flat or bottom contour available on my lake map or GPS that happens to be right in the middle of a plowed road?  DO I not have the right to drill me a few holes and fish it?

[laker]

Yep Fishahollic, you sure do, but those who have to fight drifts or other inconveniences just to get around you, probably also have a right to kick you right in the pants.

[jigglestick]

whether they have a right to kick you in the pants or not, they probably will.
that sounds like a hoot dont it?
"V" plow truck drivers wont have much sympathy for you as they come by hurling snow at 40 plus miles per hour either.

not to mention when it is towards the end of the season, runnof snow finds it way to these holes and they wash out making the road now dangerous and impassable.

[Bufflehead]

What it comes down to is mutual respect.

 Most people who plow roads out on to the ice, wouldn't want anybody to drill holes any closer than say, 60ft of the road

 When the ice sages from snow weight or traffic, water comes up through the holes and floods the road. Which can lead to all kinds of trouble.

 On another note, pi*#ing people off by running them off or refusing them access on public waters, can bring you unwanted publicity and or other unwanted actions.

 It's just better to treat everybody as you would want to be treated. Use good ethics and all those involved will be much better off.

 Hey, everybody goes fishing to have fun, enjoy the day and create memories, not fight and build grudges

[Desperado]

On another note, pi*#ing people off by running them off or refusing them access on public waters, can bring you unwanted publicity and or other unwanted actions.

Yep, the worst on-the-ice-tyrant that I ever knew of is no longer in the resort business. ... Hmmm?

[jigglestick]

now what that guy should have done instead was greet his customers the "walleye'll be way" with a big box of piping fresh krispy kremes!!
bet he'd still be in buisness :)

[Desperado]

Here's my summary edited a little from a posting a made on one other site.
My apologies to those who have already read it.

Well if there are 2 reasonable sides to this issue (which there would be if it's reasonable to use a resort access and also reasonable to use a public access), then to be 100% on either side here doesn't really come off as reasonable.

I read a posting by someone else that I consider to be one of the most reasonable assesments of both side of this debate; it said:
If you are going out of a public access or a neighboring resort and there is a plowed road between where you accessed and where you're gonna fish, you have to cross the plowed road or travel on it for a while , so be it.  But if you are accessing at the public access with the express purpose of just getting to a plowed road as quickly and easily as possible so you can spend all day you driving all over the resort-plowed roads without paying, then you are just being a dink.
On the other side of the coin, if you are a resort owner out there demanding money from everyone on the ice without a sticker on their window, you are also just being a dink.

I would also add that if anyone is drilling a hole in the middle of the path plowed by the resort OR drilling a hole in the well beaten path from a public access, that person is really being a dink.
And if any plow truck driver is legitimatly plowing his normal path and his plow bank crosses someone elses path so be it. But if he deliberatly plowed someone in for the express purpose of blocking them in. Then that plow driver is really being a dink.

The real reason this is even an issue is not because of the presence of snow at some times and the lack of snow at other times (as some here have tried to purport), it's because at times some individuals from each side of this issue have acted like REAL DINKS.

[jigglestick]

I just checked with my dink-o-meter and it didnt go off.
I just checked the batteries and they had a date of 2-24-98 on them?? 8)

[Desperado]

It's high time we start marketing that dink-o-meter at the Sports Shows.
We may have to expand the range though so it can detect someone in an oncoming vehicle.
I'm thinking this souped-up version could be called DINKDAR.
Of course
the plow drivers will soon refer to their units as "Hey You Didn't PAYDAR"
and
anglers will call their's "Get The He11 Outta My WAYDAR"
 Both can carry it with them out on the lake. 
If it goes off when the plow driver meets a rogue angler, then it's open season for extortion.
If it goes off when an angler meets a rogue plow driver, then the anlger can suggest that the plow driver perform an unnatural act upon himself while angler continues along on his merry way.

[jigglestick]

If it goes off when an angler meets a rogue plow driver, then the anlger can suggest that the plow driver perform an unnatural act upon himself while angler continues along on his merry way.

it's really not that un-natural. well at the very least  they should be used to it.

I can hear it either way.
"hey A-hole, get the ffff - ffff - ffff -......MOVE!!"