Weeds!

[HD]

I have a question that has bothered me for a long time......

I'm hoping for non toxic solution to a problem I'm sure many have encountered.

I'm a farmer, and I know how to kill it with commercial grade weed killers, the problem is this stuff pops up in my food plots and I don't want to kill off the whole field and start over.
Some of the plots I have are in lower land and I don't want to contaminate the water table.

I'm talking about milkweed.....the stuff thats lovely for the butterflys, but nothing else will eat!

Even when I plant round-up ready corn or beans, and spray, this stuff don't die!
Pulling it out by hand don't do it either, the roots are deep and they just come up with more shooters.


Maybe the Land Dr. has a answer or maybe some members have a solution.

What kills this crud?


Hunter

[GRIZ]

I don't know if this would work with milkweed or not but I seen some one doing it on dandelions. All it takes is a little water pressure. They had an air nozzle type thing hooked up to their garden hose with a long piece of small diameter copper pipe attached to the end. All they did was press the button and push the pipe into the ground, the water would wash the dirt from around the root and they pulled em up clean.

P.S. they had no dandelions.

[Lee Borgersen]

  Found this 

"Looking back, I think this was supposed to happen. I would drive by that field and try not to look at those oh-so-healthy milkweeds. Finally one day I stopped to look at my wheat and milkweed field. Nearly every milkweed had a monarch butterfly caterpillar on it. Milkweed is the sole host of the monarch butterfly caterpillar. We didn't make much off the wheat, and nearly choked on the milkweed fuzz in the straw, but took solace in knowing we raised a good crop of monarchs that year.

In 1997, Roundup Ready genetically engineered soybeans became widely available. Roundup herbicide kills everything green except the soybeans with the genetic alteration. The application window is huge. I grew some of these soybeans. The milkweeds are gone. I didn't stop to think about this until the summer of 1999 when it was reported that pollen from Bt corn, another genetically engineered crop, was getting on the milkweed in field borders and may be killing the monarch butterfly caterpillars. I found myself hoping that the offspring of the monarchs I had displaced had not wound up next to a Bt corn field. Odds are they will. Before Roundup Ready genetic engineering, it was difficult to kill milkweed in crops.

My milkweeds are gone. My neighbor's milkweeds are gone. Farmers using Roundup Ready genetics in soybeans, cotton, corn and sugar-beets are eradicating milkweed from their field nationwide, forcing the monarch butterflies to lay their eggs on milkweed in field borders and ditches. Have we done well? Perhaps not by the butterflies. Who is going to tell our children? "

[HD]

I'm thinking the milkweed has grown emune to round-up also. It sure makes the leaves brown, but does not kill the stalk. The plant re-bounds after a while, but the corn or beans are usually growing good by then.

I'm looking for an alternative solution. I just planted a food plot with clover, I waited till August to plant with the hopes that the milkweed would have been done germinating. I was wrong, and I don't want to start over.

Maybe I'll try Griz's idea............


Hunter

[Dotch]

We're seeing the need for higher rates of glyphosate to kill many weeds along with some that are bonafide resistant types, so it wouldn't come as a surprise that we may have selelcted for biotypes of milkweed that also will take more product per acre to kill them. As far as non toxic soultions for control, other than going back to the good old days of moldboard plowing everything in the fall then raising a corn, bean, small grain, followed by 3 years of hay rotation, chances are there aren't too many things in our arsenal that are as effective as glyphosate has been. Milkweed simply hasn't been a serious problem weed worth investing a lot of research money on.

For the record, it is widely known that monarchs prefer laying their eggs on milkweed plants that are out in the open such as in road ditches, CRP, waste areas, etc., not milkweed plants stuck down inside a corn canopy. Years of scouting myself over 10's of thousands of acres of corn has borne that out in addition to the observations of many entomologists over the years. The Cornell study that showed Bt pollen from corn to be toxic to monarchs was conducted in a laboratory where the the larva were fed much higher amounts of pollen than those found in or by a corn field. Corn pollen is relatively heavy and approximately only 30% of it moves farther than 25 feet from where it is shed. In addition, it washes off readily in the rain. As far as anyone can determine, monarch numbers appear to have been largely unaffected by the use of Bt in corn. What they have been shown to be affected by are freezes in Mexico in addition to the destruction of their overwintering habitat there.

This is not to say we should be ignorant of stewardship such as planting 20% or more non-Bt refuge acres when using Bt. Quite the contrary. By abusing this technology we only shorten it's usefulness as a management tool.

[deadeye]

Hunterdown,
I posed you question to my brother and here is his reply.

"Milk weed has become a problem for roundup only farmers - many are rotating
with other herbicides (he calls them commercial grade weed killers) to take
care of things like milkweed, canada thistle and other big rooted perenials
which roundup often doesn't kill completly if the plants are established.
Since food plots are usually only a few acres, not hundreds or thousands, my
susgestion is he uses the stuff he says he knows will kill it and in a hand
sprayer to spot spray individual plants.  Since this is a recreational crop,
he should be happy to spend maybe an hour or two a couple times a year to
control it."



 

[HD]

Thanks for the replies DE and Dotch!
This plot is in a lower land area and didn't want to contaminate the water suppy.
I was thinking of doing the spot treatments, and may have to go that route.
If careful, I should be ok.

I was just wondering if there was an alternative.
I have rotated this field every year, but never really had a lot of milkweed until I planted it in clover.

Thanks again,
Hunter

[Dotch]

Hey deadeye, just out of curiosity, what are some of the "commercial grade" herbicides your brother was referring to? Occasionally we run across the oddball situation where something other than a higher dose of glyphosate might be warranted, for instance in pasture, where milkweed can be toxic when forage gets limited. We've got access to just about anything and everything, having a working relationship with several major and some minor suppliers. Am aware of some products other than glyphosate that will also control milkweed. Only problem is some of the stuff I know of can be big bucks for a container, carries some additional baggage in terms of residual potentially for grazing depending on species, and may need to be shipped in from another branch of the same supplier as they are not commonly used products in the area.

[HD]

Dotch, I think he was refering to the statement I made about "commercial grade"

Some of the ones I have used are like the atrazine, imazapyr (I think that's how you spell it) and 2,4-D

All are spendy herbicides and have warnings of ground water contamination. Some even stay a long time in compost or mulch.

They work well on milkweed, but you have to have a permit to use them...

The only one I never tried was picloram, it's supose to be safe for pastures and kills unwanted wooded vegatation, but I don't know if my co-op can get it.

[Dotch]

Ah, gotcha. You spelled the active ingredient in Arsenal correctly BTW...lol! Yeah, the price of atrazine really took a hike this spring, didn't it? Tight supply too. My luck w/2,4-D on perennials the year following application hasn't been too stellar, whether it's been on my own stuff or by commercial app's over the years. NDSU did some work on tribenuron (Express) tank mixes for milkweed control in wheat but must have abandoned the idea as we haven't heard much about it for awhile. Picloram (Tordon) is rated for control of milkweed in non-crop situations but I see it's also got some of the same groundwater concerns you mention in addition to being restricted use. Saw it used to control leafy spurge when a ND resident.

[HD]

Yea, Dotch,
I have had mixed results with the 2,4-D myself....I thought it might have been the ratio I used it at.

The atrazine went way up? I still got some from last year, cause I try to rotate product.
So, I didn't even ask at the co-op.

That picloram, how well did it work in ND? I gotta do more research on this one...I haven't heard of to many people using it, least not round here.

Hey, I gotta question for ya...I heard (by rumor) that they came out with a round-up ready clover? Have you heard anything about this yet? I didn't see anything about it in the crop mags yet.

[Dotch]

Yeah, the atrazine price went up, almost double if I recall, and the availability was tight. Picloram has been around a long time and was one of the first products they had much success with on leafy spurge. It hangs around a long time though and as mentioned has some water contamination issues. Spot applied it may have some merit for milkweed. As far as Round Up Ready clover, haven't seen anything about it but someone may have some ready to release once it clears the registration hurdles. Would be surprised if there was enough demand to make it a viable product. Anything's possible though I guess.

Round Up Ready alfalfa may be back on track again however according to what I've seen in some of the forage mags and what I'm hearing from sources within the seed industry. We got to see ~200 acres of it in a customer's field prior to the restraining order or whatever legal gymnastics went into yanking the product. Was neat to take out volunteer wheat and anything else that happened to be in the way (seeded in August) while the alfalfa flourished. Only problem was the co-op screwed up and ran out in a bunch of places so non-Round Up alfalfa had to be seeded into those areas the following spring as the product had been removed from the market. Also ticked me off as I had planned to seed some myself on a small acreage that following spring so weed control wouldn't be such a hassle. Instead I got a weedy mess that was a royal pain to deal with... If the sun the moon and stars align however, the product may get the green light again this coming spring. 

[HD]

I think that the round-up ready clover, if it is true, would be more popular with the food plot guys than anybody else. Or, maybe with some of the dairy farmers...but, I would be interested to see if they would have done any tests on residual effects, such as in the milk. (just me thinking out loud)

The round-up ready alfalfa stuff I would be interested in, I got a field that I have been rotating corn and beans for a while and am gonna put it in alfalfa. Then, I got one hay field that has been in hay for 7 years now, and needs to be re-done. I figured I'd swap it for the other field and, no till and drill some corn in that one next spring.

[Dotch]

FYI Hunterdown:

Top Of The News 
 
 

Court Decision Won’t Affect RR Alfalfa Status
 
A federal appeals court in California decided last week to uphold a lower court's ruling temporarily halting plantings of Roundup Ready alfalfa, pending completion of an environmental impact statement (EIS) by USDA’s Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service (APHIS). But the ruling should have no bearing on how soon hay growers again can have access to the transgenic technology, says the head of the company that developed the first Roundup Ready varieties under a licensing agreement with Monsanto.

“The appeal and the development of the EIS are independent processes, so the appeals process should not effect the timetable for a final EIS and a new deregulation decision by APHIS,” says Mark McCaslin of Forage Genetics International. McCaslin explains that the appeals case was an argument over a point of law: Did U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer of San Francisco follow required legal standards in May 2007 when he issued a permanent injunction prohibiting any new plantings of Roundup Ready alfalfa seed until USDA completes the EIS?

McCaslin remains optimistic about the future for Roundup Ready alfalfa. Earlier this summer, APHIS predicted it will complete a draft EIS for Roundup Ready alfalfa by the end of this year or in early 2009. See “Roundup Ready Alfalfa On Track For 2009 Return,” eHay Weekly, June 16.

Following a public comment period, APHIS will issue a final draft. “Our understanding is that the EIS process is on schedule,” says McCaslin.

In last week's legal proceedings, the three-judge panel voted two to one to uphold Breyer's permanent injunction order. Judge Randy Smith, who was raised on an Idaho alfalfa farm, disagreed with the majority. He contended that Breyer should have held an additional hearing to hear from expert witnesses before issuing a nationwide injunction with "severe economic consequences" for the company and customers.

For a full text version of the opinions issued in the appeals case, go to www.ca9.uscourts.gov/. Click on Opinions, then Geerston Seed Farms v. Monsanto.

 

[HD]

It sounds promising!
Thanks, Dotch!

I wonder if you could spray annually for weeds then? THAT...would be cool!
Imagine the invasive weeds you could terminate.............


Hunter

[Dotch]

Yes you can. In addition to making it easier to establish when straight seeding and getting a couple weed free cuts the first year, it would help keep things like dandelions down 3 - 4 years down the road when the stand begins to thin if one wants to keep it a little longer. I know the forage gurus frown on that because they are so hung up on $'s per acre over the long haul but there are sometimes short term circumstances their studies don't take into account. And some of their research regarding fall cuttings has cost some producers dearly. But hey, what do I know? They're right back at it again this fall, telling people the same garbage. I just pick up the aftermath from some of that "brilliant advice" and try to line up hay supplies for those whose fields have winter killed. 

[HD]

I don't have much trouble with the dandelions as much as I do with the velvet leaf and the rag weed, oh, and them stupid little white flowers.......The ones people tell me are toxic to horses.
And of course, from what this post stems from...the Milkweed!

Don't kid yourself my friend you are very knowledgeable when it comes to this sort of thing. Each time I talk to you, or read your posts....I learn somth'in new. And for that I Thank-you!

Hunter

[Randy Kaar]

Dotch "is" the Guru of land management! 

randy

[Dotch]

You guys are too kind. I can tell plenty of horror stories about some of my personal "learning-curve experiences" over the past 28 years too. Can laugh about them now but sure wasn't then.

Ah, so you have hoary (can we say that on here?) alyssum Hunterdown? Forgot about that one raising heck with those hay burners otherwise known as horses. Other livestock seems largely unaffected but it does mess horses up pretty good if they get enough of it. Doesn't usually kill them but they're not the same for several months after the poisoning. Written by a couple people I call friends:

http://www.extension.umn.edu/horse/components/pdfs/FactSheets/Hoary%20Alyssum%20FS.pdf

As far as common milkweed, it generally isn't considered all that toxic to livestock, taking a large amount ingested to take them out. However, there are several species of milkweed and butterfly milkweed can be very toxic to all grazing animals. It can cause loss of muscle control, spasms, bloating, increased pulse rate, weak rapid breathing, fever, coma, and death. Symptoms occur within one to two days after eating. Toxin is a resinoid, galitoxin. Also contains glucosides and alkaloids.

No doubt, where you're dealing with horse people who can be pretty finicky about their hay, Round Up Ready alfalfa would be something most of them could probably appreciate. For food plots too, it would be a lock.

[HD]

Yep, Dotch I have hoary in one of my hay fields. 
I got 600 squares off of that field, first cut.
I usually sell what I get from that field to help pay for the land taxes.
It seems not to effect cows, or not as much, and thats who usually buys it. (cow people)
One of my sons friends, mom, called my wife while I was at work (my other job) and wanted to buy the lot. She came over with another lady and seen that there were white flowers in the field.
(It doesn't seem to grow till after the first cut anyway, or you can't tell)
They broke open 1/2 of the bails making sure there were no flowers in them. When I got home, I had hay everywhere and a 400 dollar check for what they did load and take.
I found out later that they were horse people, if I would have known this first, I would have told them not to bother. But, I was at work.....
I wasn't gonna re-bail some 300 odd bails
I lost a lot of profit because of them dang white flowers!

Wasn't there a project going on to try to extract the latex from Milkweed? I thought I read it in one of the ag mags.
I read about the milkweed being toxic, but it also said that livestock would have to consume large quanities to get them ill.
It also said something about it being toxic to humans as well. The funny part about the report was that it said that humans could eat the young flowers and buds, but they had to be thoughly cooked....Now why on earth, would anybody want to eat a milkweed? Especially if you know it's toxic if not done right....


I will be looking into the alfalfa, that would be the way to go!

[LandDr]

Milkweed...hum...just never really paid attention to it.  Food plots are never completely clean and weeds are tollerated to some extent since food plots are not production ag.

Have you tried a higher rate of Roundup sunch as 1.5 to 2 qrts per acre?  That is usually the rate that I apply Roundup at and I seem to recall that it takes the milkweed down.  The reason that I use the higher rate is due to the fact that I wait as long as I can before I spray...I let the weeds really come up on my RR corn or RR beans and then spray.  Since this is a late spraying, I often don't have to spray a second time...saving some time and money.  Again, I am not trying for 200 to 250 bushels of corn per acre.

As mentioned in the past, one or two years of RR corn and/or beans is an ideal option to clean up new plots and break down sod as well as cleaning up old plots that have gotten out of control.

Thanks for the question and will look forward to your response on what rate you are applying RR at.

Kyle, PLM

[HD]

I put 6 oz of round up in a 32 oz spray bottle with water, and have been trying to spot treat the area.
So far it just turned the leaves slightly brown on the milkweed, but has not killed the plant.
Also, the overspray killed some of the freshly planted clover.
Not working out as planned....
I tried it only on a section of the plot, and I think I'll just have to resort to just keep mowing it down.


Hunter