moving the deer season out of rut

[dakids]

I have read in a weekly outdoor paper that some people want to move the deer season out of the rut. What does everyone here think?

It seems to me that the people that want to move it the most are bowhunters, and trophy hunters.  The people that want it moved say that Minnesota needs to move the season back so we will have more big bucks like Iowa, Wisconsin and Illinois.

I do not bow hunt. I do like to shoot big bucks, but I also enjoy the effort that it takes to shoot bigger bucks.  You can't just park your butt in the same stand that you have used for the last 20 years and expect a 150 class buck to walk up to you and say here I am, shoot me.

If the season is moved up it will be to warm and some deer will be spoiled before they get to the butcher.  It will interupt the bow season, and the trophy deer will not be able to breed the does.

If the season is moved back, will the bow hunters be allowed to hunt the rut?  If the season is moved back it will be colder.  My parents are getting older and I don't think they can take the cold.  I also have kids that will be starting to hunt in a few years.  How do you get a young kid to sit still when it is below zero, let alone even go deer hunting?  I know that there are youth hunts in some areas and parks, but that is not how I want to hunt with the kids. I want to have them be part of deer camp, not a prelude to deer camp.

I think the season is perfect.  Leave it right were it is.  What does everyone else think?

[Spinach]

Can I give you an answer around the 1st of November?

If the season were to change at all, i'd vote to have it pushed back 1 week, the last 10 years or so have been too warm, no snow, corn still in in most areas around here etc.....

I definitely would be pissed off if it were moved up 1 week though. I hunt bow and shotgun, and i love the tradition of sitting in my stand in September, taking a few weeks off for rifle season and then back to the bow for the remainder of the season. I love having the opportunity to hunt shotgun during the rut. I agree with al of the reasons you allready said too.

I'd like it to stay the same or push it back 1 week to match Wisconsins opener.

Thanks for bringing this up, it's a great topic to discuss.

[dakids]

This years season starts on the 8th.  A little later already.  I used to hunt in the shotgun zone.  The crops in the field is a major downer.

[Grute Man]

Well I don't think it would interrupt bow hunters any more -- its still the same amount of time just at a different time.

I agree with Pat - move it out a week later into Nov. if anything.  I've deer hunted with firearms for 10 seasons now and 8 out of those 10 seasons, the only time I even SAW a deer was when I was in the truck.     The other two season, I was just  and missed    

Grute 

[Cody Gruchow]

well i agree with pat maybe a week later instead of sooner, i mean i like hang my deer for a bit before i butcher it. but you cant do that if its 60+ degrees out. plus i dont like hunting in the heat.

[thunderpout]

Is the reason they want to do this is to improve the trophy hunting/buck to doe ratio because bucks are vulnerable during the rut? if so, why not just limit the amount of bucks that can be taken?  It seems simple to me, though alot of folks would start bitchin if you had limits on bucks, but its a no brainer aint it?  Since nobody practices QDM on public land, and most dont even do it on private land, it just seems logical to have buck tags or a lotto in areas we want to get better for buck numbers... you could also have muzzleloader zones instead of another season, or cut back the length of bow season as a lot of bucks get taken out during the late seasons with them...  Ipersonally would like the MN deer opener to be around thanksgiving like it used to be... I'd have a few more weekends to grouse hunt ;)but I dont think thats gonna save any bucks movin it later... In fact it seems like the bucks aint in full rut till a few weekends after opener lately with the warmer weather the last few years, so you may be movin it into the peak by doin this... reality would be to limit the amount of bucks taken, but that will not ever go over well with most folks, they have to have the chance to get a rack if they're gonna sit in a stand.

[Auggie]

    I think we need to move the firearms season out of the rut. We can have our pie and eat it too. The states like Illinois, Iowa and Wisconsin have great deer herds and many mature bucks. We kill to many 1.5 old bucks when the firearms season coincides with the rut. The seasons we have now were created back in the 70's when we had fewer deer and have not changed with the times or herd populations. The proposed 9 day season for the farmland areas could be devastating to #'s, not only bucks but deer in general. I feel the the farmland area's could be set up like Iowa as far as dates and the rifle area could stay about the same except to move the season later by a week or two. JMHO. This is a great topic and should start some good debates.

[Auggie]

Is the reason they want to do this is to improve the trophy hunting/buck to doe ratio because bucks are vulnerable during the rut? if so, why not just limit the amount of bucks that can be taken?  It seems simple to me, though alot of folks would start bitchin if you had limits on bucks, but its a no brainer aint it?  Since nobody practices QDM on public land, and most dont even do it on private land, it just seems logical to have buck tags or a lotto in areas we want to get better for buck numbers... you could also have muzzleloader zones instead of another season, or cut back the length of bow season as a lot of bucks get taken out during the late seasons with them...  Ipersonally would like the MN deer opener to be around thanksgiving like it used to be... I'd have a few more weekends to grouse hunt ;)but I dont think thats gonna save any bucks movin it later... In fact it seems like the bucks aint in full rut till a few weekends after opener lately with the warmer weather the last few years, so you may be movin it into the peak by doin this... reality would be to limit the amount of bucks taken, but that will not ever go over well with most folks, they have to have the chance to get a rack if they're gonna sit in a stand.

I would LOVE to see a buck lottery or antler restriction along with a changed season. Dream Dream. All I do is dream about this. The reality is the DNR is about license sales and not management in my opinion. All politics. Most people want to shoot larger deer but are not willing to sacrifice a few years to do so. The guys that meat hunt should be shooting does if that is what they are out for. Do not get me wrong as I will take a venison steak any day of the week but I would rather shoot a doe to eat. As for bucks I would rather shoot one nice buck every 5 years than shoot a little basket every year. Again JMHO.

[Super Star!]

but yup shut down the mass killings of small bucks and let the drawings begain...

[HD]

I'm in favor of the antler restriction thing.

The only thing that would screw me up is that I hunt both Wisc. and Minn.
All 3 seasons (bow, rifle and muzzel)
We do QDM on both properties.......The Minn. one, is more productive for larger bucks than Wisc.
(but we are working on that)


Hunter

[Grute Man]

I think antler restrictions would help too.  And maybe take a doe first in certain regions but I think that might already be in place. 

[Spinach]

Great discussion, lets hear some more opinions. 

[kenhuntin]

I personally would not support a time change but I 100% fully back an antler size restriction or a buck lottery other than doe tag.
 I like the responses to this topic.

[Faceman]

I would like to see the season get pushed back a week. I am happy it is on the 8th this year.
I have a different outlook than most here. I am not a trophy hunter. I shoot for the meat. So with that being said I prefer to shoot does and 1.5 year bucks. Our hunting party only shoots what we can eat and let the rest go. Where I hunt it is only 20 acres and the deer crossing varies every year, so you take what is offered. The farmer that owns everything around us bulldozes everthing every 3-4 years and totally screws up our hunting. I have shot younger deer and have gotten a couple of really nice bucks. The antlers are nice but tou cant eat them. I have saved most of the antlers and now have a set of 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12 pointers. The 2 and 4 pointers tasted alot better than the 10 and 12 pointers. I have seen many big bucks up where I hunt but have not got any clean shots at them and really dont care. I know I will get bashed on this but I like to be able to shoot whatever buck I like. If they want to do an earn a buck, meaning you must shoot and register a doe first that is fine with me. Although I have only shot 1 doe in my life. The rest of our party have only shot 1 or 2 bucks each. I just always seem to be in the right stand at the right time for bucks.

[Auggie]

Faceman,
   I am not bashing you in anyway here OK. Just a question for you. If you are a meat hunter, and you hunt purely for the meat, why don't you go to an area that allows the taking of 5 antlerless deer and shoot till your freezer is full? Mn has numerous areas that allow you to take extra antlerless deer. I go to the Blackhills myself, every year, and you can buy up to five doe tags to fill with your smokepole. They are like rats.  Our bunch took close to 40 does in about a 2 week period. Most of us had 2-4 tags and only one tag was not filled. $80 for a double tag. Pile your buddies in a truck and it is a pretty cheap out of state hunt and you can fill your freezer while enjoying the new scenery. All on public ground.
   Another regulation I would like to see change is how the antlerless tag works. If you put in for antlerless and draw then you should be required to shoot an antlerless deer. This would be a way to ease people into the earn a buck. Man I could go on forever on this issue!

[deadeye]

Auggie, I don't want to answer for Faceman, but he probably hunts his, or a relatives land.  As a land owner myself, I would perfer to take deer off my land.  There's just something really satisfying watching "my" deer throughtout the year and then harvesting a few during the seasons.   I think the answeres on the season timming will vary greatly between people who hunt private land and those who hunt public land.   If you own or control the land, the time of a specific season probably doesn't mean so much.   Last year I bow hunted some in early October, rifle hunted the early doe season, bow hunted late October, gun hunted the rifle season, muzzle loader hunted late Novermber/early December and finished off the season with a few late December bow hunts.   For me it probably makes little difference when they time the rifle season.
I realize not every one has the oppertunity to hunt this way and because of that, they will have a much stronger opinion on the timing of the rifle season.   

[dakids]

I hunt on public land and I see more deer than most of my relatives and neighbors.  I also hunt more than A mile from the nearest road.  I see a lot of big bucks.  All are in very thick cover and shots are hard to come by.  If people want to move the season out of the rut for the rifle season I feel that we should also stop the bow season for that time period.  I don't think as many people will want to move the season if they themselves are not able to hunt the rut.  If it is in the name of bettering the heard there should be very few arguments on this point.

[thunderpout]

After thinking this through for a day, I guess if its all in the name of more and bigger bucks, the simplest way(s) to go would be the buck lotto/earn a buck deal and/or limiting the time one can have total in the woods to get a buck, meaning the more time spent in the woods, the better the chance of getting one, right? So... this aint gonna be popular, but lets say ya have to choose yer poison... if ya want to bow hunt all fall, you get limited rifle/muzzle loader hunting and vise-versa... or if ya get a buck bowhunting... you can only take a doe the rest of the fall... these things make more sense to me than movin the date if you really want to increase the quality and quantity of the bucks.

[dakids]

Is moving the season later really going to change the ratio of more and bigger bucks.  I think no.  If you want more and bigger bucks the mentality of "if its brown its down" has to be changed.  If you implament earn a buck.  One person shoots a doe and several people tag and register that doe.  If you really want big bucks you might have better luck talking your neighbors into not shooting the basket bucks.
If you impliment point restrictions.  What happens when an inexperienced hunter gets excited and shoots a deer that is one point short? Does that deer get left to rot?  What is the benefit?  If you cant shoot a buck until it is a 6 pointer then every 6 pointer gets shot when they get that 6th point. He still is not a trophy to some.

Another option is to hunt were the big bucks are.  Do more scouting, on the internet and on foot. Don't take the easy way out. Hunt farther from the road. Let the other hunters work for you. I have a friend that takes a boat across a lake every year to get to the back side of the public land. He goes in early and lets the other hunters push the deer to him and his father.  He shoots a big buck most years.  When you are out in the woods were you hunt, take your GPS with you and mark every stand that you find. When you get home log onto Google earth and enter those way points onto the map. When you do this you will get a BIG picture of were the other hunters are and where they might be comming in from.  Find the bottle necks on a map. The harder they are to get to the better. Most hunters are lazy. I have a few brothers that say the season should be moved for most of the reasons that have already been mentioned. They are LAZY. They all hunt in areas that are more open and close to the roads. Big deer are not stupid. That is how they get big.
There are different options to improve the amount of big bucks in the state.  What is the cost and who is going to pay?  Some hunters enjoy just shooting a deer, (buck or doe).  Who am I to judge him?  It is a free country. Let them shoot what they want. I will just hunt harder and where others say is to hard to get to.
I feel better already!  I will now get off of my pulpit.

[Spinach]

Is moving the season later really going to change the ratio of more and bigger bucks.  I think no.  If you want more and bigger bucks the mentality of "if its brown its down" has to be changed.  If you implament earn a buck.  One person shoots a doe and several people tag and register that doe.  If you really want big bucks you might have better luck talking your neighbors into not shooting the basket bucks.
If you impliment point restrictions.  What happens when an inexperienced hunter gets excited and shoots a deer that is one point short? Does that deer get left to rot?  What is the benefit?  If you cant shoot a buck until it is a 6 pointer then every 6 pointer gets shot when they get that 6th point. He still is not a trophy to some.

Another option is to hunt were the big bucks are.  Do more scouting, on the internet and on foot. Don't take the easy way out. Hunt farther from the road. Let the other hunters work for you. I have a friend that takes a boat across a lake every year to get to the back side of the public land. He goes in early and lets the other hunters push the deer to him and his father.  He shoots a big buck most years.  When you are out in the woods were you hunt, take your GPS with you and mark every stand that you find. When you get home log onto Google earth and enter those way points onto the map. When you do this you will get a BIG picture of were the other hunters are and where they might be comming in from.  Find the bottle necks on a map. The harder they are to get to the better. Most hunters are lazy. I have a few brothers that say the season should be moved for most of the reasons that have already been mentioned. They are LAZY. They all hunt in areas that are more open and close to the roads. Big deer are not stupid. That is how they get big.
There are different options to improve the amount of big bucks in the state.  What is the cost and who is going to pay?  Some hunters enjoy just shooting a deer, (buck or doe).  Who am I to judge him?  It is a free country. Let them shoot what they want. I will just hunt harder and where others say is to hard to get to.
I feel better already!  I will now get off of my pulpit.

Excellent post, i agree 100%

[Auggie]

    Dakids you do have some great points. The reason for moving the season out of the rut is simple. To prevent the "LAZY" hunters from killing all the 1.5 to 2.5 year old bucks that are to stupid to keep themselves out of harms way. They can't get to maturity if we kill them all when they are young correct? I also hunt a lot of public land, especially when out of state. And the further from the roads you get the better quality deer you find. All right on the money.
    You are correct on the brown it is down mentality. But talking to your neighboring property owners only works if they have the same goals as you. Believe me, I have been trying for years to convince them. That is why I feel that a lottery for bucks is the way to go. We feed the deer all winter on our property with the large food plot we plant every year. They herd up and all roll in about mid January and stay fat. Then the neighbors (and relatives) shoot anything that moves come the opening of season.
     As for shutting the bow season off during the rut I think that is a joke. I myself have not had a bow tag in over 15 years so I am not speaking as a bow hunter. But think about this. When the season opens we have 400,000 + orange gun toting hunters flood the woods. How many bow hunters are we going to have in the woods at any one time? Not any number that would have any effect on the herd for sure.
      Antler restriction is tough but many states implement it with out any trouble. My son is four years old and he can count points so I think inexperience is crutch for some to hide behind. I think that the youth should still be able to take what they want when they want no questions asked. That will allow them to get some years under their belt and the excuse will be gone. Man I LOVE this debate!!!
         

[Ryan]

I might be way off here, but I'll say it anyway.  If they move the season back after the rut that will allow time for more breeding that may have not taken place otherwise.  In areas that are overcrowded that will increase the deer population.  Where I hunt I thought we did a good job of shooting does last year, but I have heard reports that there are as many deer if not more than last year.  I guess I don't know the statistics, but if some bucks are shot does that mean that maybe every doe will not be bread or does it not matter.

I also think hunting shows have gotten into everyones head a little too much on what type of deer you should shoot.  If someone wants to shoot a small buck they have every right to do it.  Personally I would shoot any doe before shooting a small buck, but that is just my opinion.  Do we have to take the fun out of hunting for what I would guess is the majority of hunters just so we can shoot bigger bucks?

[Auggie]

    We could be like Iowa and have our cake and eat it too! Nothing can change the fact that the current season structure was intended to bring the population back up in the 70's. Things have changed since 35 years ago. I think in most areas we have succeeded in bringing the population up now we need to change the system and get the age class and buck to doe ratio back in line. Every one likes to shoot or at least have the opportunity to kill a buck. But if you say you would rather shoot a small buck than a mature buck you are full of Every one gets excited about big deer. Every one. Go to a buck lottery and maybe Ryan can invite some of you that "only hunt for the meat" guys to come and help him kill some flat tops!!!

[dakids]

I hate the idea of a buck lottery. I want to be able to shoot a buck every year if I get the opertunity. I scout for bucks and work very hard at it.  People party hunt and will still shoot any buck they see and have there buddy tag the buck, which is what happens with doe tags in zone 4.  That will not improve the big buck picture for most. 

I love hunting the rut. It is a magical time of the year. I don't want some politition telling me that I can't hunt the rut because someone thinks that moving the hunt out of the rut will fix ALL of the problems.  There are ways around every proposed change. It doesn't matter when 400,000 hunters hit the woods if those hunters opinions or actions have not changed.

My opinion, and I am entitled to it, is to maybe increase the price of a bucks only tag by 20 or 30 dollars.  The meat hunters will not pay for the trophy hunter goals.  We all get to hunt the rut.  If someone pays more for the opertunity to harvest a buck they will be less likely to tag a buck for there buddy. If the buck tag costs more, most might think twice before shooting that small buck.

The state will also reap the benefit by generating more money which could be put back into deer habitat.

I LOVE HUNTING THE RUT. PLEASE DON'T TRY TO FIX A PROBLEM WITH MORE RULES AND CHANGES THAT WILL NOT CHANGE WHAT MOST PEOPLE DO.

[Grute Man]

    We could be like Iowa and have our cake and eat it too! Nothing can change the fact that the current season structure was intended to bring the population back up in the 70's. Things have changed since 35 years ago. I think in most areas we have succeeded in bringing the population up now we need to change the system and get the age class and buck to doe ratio back in line. Every one likes to shoot or at least have the opportunity to kill a buck. But if you say you would rather shoot a small buck than a mature buck you are full of Every one gets excited about big deer. Every one. Go to a buck lottery and maybe Ryan can invite some of you that "only hunt for the meat" guys to come and help him kill some flat tops!!!

Keep in mind - everyone has different goals.  I for one am not a trophy hunter.  I am a meat hunter and also a youth advocate.  If a youth gets ANY dear, that's great and should be celebrated and not minimized as "only a flat top" or "good enough for a kid."  Also for being a meat hunter, Im proud of that.  I put 2 in my freezer last fall and gave a third doe to a friend.  This friend of mine had a bad accident and hasn't worked since May of 07.  His entire family was VERY happy to have that doe.  They didn't care about some trophy.

Now Im not saying a trophy is a bad thing.  If I saw a trophy class deer you bet your bottom dollar I'd do my best to take him but I will never pass on an opportunity to feed my family.

[HD]

Keep in mind - everyone has different goals.  I for one am not a trophy hunter.  I am a meat hunter and also a youth advocate.  If a youth gets ANY dear, that's great and should be celebrated and not minimized as "only a flat top" or "good enough for a kid."  Also for being a meat hunter, Im proud of that.  I put 2 in my freezer last fall and gave a third doe to a friend.  This friend of mine had a bad accident and hasn't worked since May of 07.  His entire family was VERY happy to have that doe.  They didn't care about some trophy.

Now Im not saying a trophy is a bad thing.  If I saw a trophy class deer you bet your bottom dollar I'd do my best to take him but I will never pass on an opportunity to feed my family.
[/quote]



You are very wise, young grasshopper!


To me, it's all about the kids!
Your not going to change a thing by pushing out the season.............period.
Us bow hunters will still be whacking deer!

Just my 2 pennies!

Hunter

[Auggie]

    We could be like Iowa and have our cake and eat it too! Nothing can change the fact that the current season structure was intended to bring the population back up in the 70's. Things have changed since 35 years ago. I think in most areas we have succeeded in bringing the population up now we need to change the system and get the age class and buck to doe ratio back in line. Every one likes to shoot or at least have the opportunity to kill a buck. But if you say you would rather shoot a small buck than a mature buck you are full of Every one gets excited about big deer. Every one. Go to a buck lottery and maybe Ryan can invite some of you that "only hunt for the meat" guys to come and help him kill some flat tops!!!

Keep in mind - everyone has different goals.  I for one am not a trophy hunter.  I am a meat hunter and also a youth advocate.  If a youth gets ANY dear, that's great and should be celebrated and not minimized as "only a flat top" or "good enough for a kid."  Also for being a meat hunter, Im proud of that.  I put 2 in my freezer last fall and gave a third doe to a friend.  This friend of mine had a bad accident and hasn't worked since May of 07.  His entire family was VERY happy to have that doe.  They didn't care about some trophy.

Now Im not saying a trophy is a bad thing.  If I saw a trophy class deer you bet your bottom dollar I'd do my best to take him but I will never pass on an opportunity to feed my family.

   Don,
    I too encourage the youth. In the post before the one you quoted I specifically said the youth should be excluded from any restriction. Flat top, baldy, doe. Just an expression for a female deer.
Nothing derogatory about it.
    As for being a meat hunter, great, but be realistic about it. To feed your family, c'mon now. If you truly hunted for the meat you would be money ahead buying a quarter of beef. You said it yourself. If a trophy presented itself you would "do your best to take it". Proving my point that "every one likes big deer". I too love to feast on venison. I put 3 of the buggers in my freezer last year and each was a "flat top". They were all taken in the Black Hills in January. They have a point restriction and buck lottery. Still filled my freezer with venison. In the late season no less. All I have said is if we structure our seasons differently we CAN HAVE OUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO! The writing is on the wall in many states around us. Meat hunters and trophy hunters can coexist and attain their different goals, but we all need to be open to some changes.

[Auggie]

I hate the idea of a buck lottery. I want to be able to shoot a buck every year if I get the opertunity. I scout for bucks and work very hard at it.  People party hunt and will still shoot any buck they see and have there buddy tag the buck, which is what happens with doe tags in zone 4.  That will not improve the big buck picture for most. 

I love hunting the rut. It is a magical time of the year. I don't want some politition telling me that I can't hunt the rut because someone thinks that moving the hunt out of the rut will fix ALL of the problems.  There are ways around every proposed change. It doesn't matter when 400,000 hunters hit the woods if those hunters opinions or actions have not changed.

My opinion, and I am entitled to it, is to maybe increase the price of a bucks only tag by 20 or 30 dollars.  The meat hunters will not pay for the trophy hunter goals.  We all get to hunt the rut.  If someone pays more for the opertunity to harvest a buck they will be less likely to tag a buck for there buddy. If the buck tag costs more, most might think twice before shooting that small buck.

The state will also reap the benefit by generating more money which could be put back into deer habitat.

I LOVE HUNTING THE RUT. PLEASE DON'T TRY TO FIX A PROBLEM WITH MORE RULES AND CHANGES THAT WILL NOT CHANGE WHAT MOST PEOPLE DO.

    No one said it would fix "ALL" the problems by "just moving the season". There is a host of other things that would also need to be addressed. And while we are on that subject party hunting is one of them. You asked for the opinions to begin with. Now you are getting them.
    Your opinion is yours and I respect your right to it. But what will raising the the fee do except exclude those with out the means to have a chance at a buck? Are you saying it is more fair to "buy" a buck than to let everyone have equal chance at drawing a buck tag in a lottery system? Sad. Money is the direction all hunting is moving. If you can't afford it too bad. I really hate to see the direction stuff is headed for hunting if we think whipping out the checkbook is the answer to our problems. You might as well come and buy one of my deer out of the pen. The state would reap everything is correct. They could use the money to pay for other projects by stealing from our fish and game funds even more!!!!
     Isn't it funny how two guys that have the same goals, (more mature bucks), can differ so much on opinion? I hope you are taking all this in fun and not getting to serious about it. We both know that the chances of change in any direction is slim.

[Ryan]

I would be fine with the earn a buck program in certain areas like where I hunt.  Anyone can shoot a doe so there is no reason they can't before shooting a buck.  In some areas that may not work so well.  I think if they ever want to do this they need to make it more of a regional thing rather than the whole state.

[deadeye]

dakids said:
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"Another option is to hunt were the big bucks are.  Do more scouting, on the internet and on foot. Don't take the easy way out. Hunt farther from the road. Let the other hunters work for you. I have a friend that takes a boat across a lake every year to get to the back side of the public land. He goes in early and lets the other hunters push the deer to him and his father.  He shoots a big buck most years.  When you are out in the woods were you hunt, take your GPS with you and mark every stand that you find. When you get home log onto Google earth and enter those way points onto the map. When you do this you will get a BIG picture of were the other hunters are and where they might be comming in from.  Find the bottle necks on a map. The harder they are to get to the better. Most hunters are lazy. I have a few brothers that say the season should be moved for most of the reasons that have already been mentioned. They are LAZY. They all hunt in areas that are more open and close to the roads."
**********************************************************************

I think you may be a little hard on your fellow hunters.  There are a lot of hunters that for age (young or old), health problems or other reasons cannot go miles off the road to hunt.  I don't think that makes them "lazy hunters" as you frequently state. 
Just who are these people who are complaining about lack of big bucks?  I doubt it's the hunters you describe.  I think we need to know the type of hunter that has this concern before we condem all hunters.   
Thanks for sharing some of your "secrets" to getting bigger bucks!