If it's brown, it's down?

[atcher]

I have a question to ask.  I have been rifle hunting deer in Minnesota for 10 years.  Originally we had to apply for doe permits.  I never got a doe permit right away.  Shot a spike buck my 3rd year.  Pretty cool, my first deer.  Continued hunting and got a wall hanger 13 pointer in '04.  I have shot a few deer since 2001, some big does, a couple bucks and a lone fawn.  Since the beginning of hunting with me, my partner has been buck hungry the whole time.  He has shot the spectrum of little bucks, spikes, forks, baby sixes and a little eight.  He has no problem doing this as "it is tougher to get a buck".  Since my 13 pointer, I have no problem shooting a nice doe, since the meat tastes the same, but I don't want to shoot a "small" buck, let him grow.  He wouldn't understand if I told him that I passed on a buck, no matter what size it was.  Does anybody else have this crazy idea in the back of their head?  They changed us from an intensive harvest to managed area this year.  We hunt private land with miles of Tamarack swamp around us, no pressure to move the deer, so it is tough to see deer.  He just started a food plot this summer.  We're not hunting 3rd weekend or muzzleloader, so the first two weekends count.  How do you tell the guy to let the little ones go?  He's kind of controversial.

[sjohnnie26]

  to MNO/MWO

I'd be honest with him, if he's already shot several bucks in the past shooting another small one will feel the same as that.  Tell him they all taste the same and if he ever wants to shoot a "big buck" he has to learn to pass on some of the smaller ones, and be patient.

[Go Big Red!]

I personally don't pass up much.  I am a meat hunter and I know this will frustrate many who read this.  And that's fine.  We all hunt for various reasons, follow different traditions,  or "Camp rules".  I really don't care what it is or if it has horns or not, I will shoot it.

Is this wrong?  I don't believe so.  Is QDM worth while?  I'm sure it is, but where we hunt makes this challenging.  And I love venison...

Just my two cents.

[BiggA]

Im with Big Red on this one. Hunting is different to everyone and everyones goals are different. Sure I would like to shoot a wallhanger some day but I rely on venison in the winter to eat so I am not one to pass on much. Maybe my opinion would change if I had 100 or more acres of private land to hunt but I would still like to eat venison and I have yet to find a good recipe for antler.

[deadeye]

atcher, 
I sounds like you have prime area to implement some sort of QDM.  To do this will take the cooperation of all that hunt the land.  You say you are hunting private land. I assume being the other hunter planted a food plot, he has some say in the land. (owner?).  Nothing wrong with shooting young bucks as long as your not trying to get more mature bucks in your area.  Maybe he will get a wall hanger and then decide himself to shoot does for meat while hunting for a big boy.  If you don't have any direct say in the land, you may just have to wait until he changes.  Again, nothing against anyone shooting young bucks, but by the same token, if you do, you can't complain about not getting a big one.  Happy Hunting.

[JohnWester]

i too am a meat hunter, but it depends on where I hunt too.  If I am up on state land and I have the tags... you bet if it's brown it's down.  If I pass on the 200 pound 4 pointer, someone else will just shoot it a mile down the path.

When I am hunting on private land, I certainly respect the QDM wishes of the owner.  If he is going to give me the opportunity to shoot a 10+ buck, i'd do just about anything for him.  And where I bow hunt in the north metro on my uncles land, I have met with the neighbors who also hunt around there and we all agree, does or 10+ points.

So I guess it depends on a few things.  But yeah, if it's his land, he can do what he wants.  If he's planting food plots on state land... Where is it?  I'll come "help" you out.
If it's a joint thing you guys went in on, tell him you can't eat antlers, and to shoot does.

[Mayfly]

How do you tell the guy to let the little ones go?  He's kind of controversial.

Good Luck.

The usual excuse is that "I am just a meat hunter" I call the  card on that one. If your just a meat hunter then go to the grocery store and buy some meat, and yes you can buy venison too if that is what you prefer. If deer hunting and deer camp is a tradition, then don't shoot a deer unless its a doe or nice buck. Its a mentality in Minnesota that has been hard to change but is changing. A huge % of walleye fisherman now practice selective harvest and catch and release. It was an uphill battle for many many years but its catching on. When people can actually start seeing results than they start believing. Any hunter, and I mean any hunter...well 99%, given the choice of a 5 year old 13 point buck, a 2 year old doe, or a 2 year old 6 point would shoot the big buck. But wait..... I thought you were a meat hunter?? Hmmm, if I were a meat hunter I would take the doe or actually I would prefer a fawn. The best venison I have ever eaten was a fawn doe. I guess if that doesn't work the argument would be that all they saw was a 6 point buck or a spike buck and they needed the meat. Who knows.....

What it comes down to is a generational thing I believe. We need more people like you and I to practice QDM and spread the word. Every kid in the state would rather shoot a bigger buck and about 90% of adults would as well. 

Oh and.....

If I pass on the 200 pound 4 pointer, someone else will just shoot it a mile down the path.

Thats a horrible (my opinion - no offense to you John) mentality to have. Give him a chance not to be shot. Sure there is a chance that another hunter will take him but the other guy probably has the same mentality. If I don't shoot him someone will...... But then again if he is a 200 pound 4 point buck then you might as well shoot him in northern minnesota, that deer most likely 3 yeqars or older and has some gentic issues with antler growth.

[Mayfly]

Looks like i'm going to ruffle some feathers on this one.. Sorry guys, just my opinion. It doesn't mean I have any less respect for all deer hunters. We all have one thing in common, we love deer hunting! 

[22lex]

I have a question to ask.  I have been rifle hunting deer in Minnesota for 10 years.  Originally we had to apply for doe permits.  I never got a doe permit right away.  Shot a spike buck my 3rd year.  Pretty cool, my first deer.  Continued hunting and got a wall hanger 13 pointer in '04.  I have shot a few deer since 2001, some big does, a couple bucks and a lone fawn.  Since the beginning of hunting with me, my partner has been buck hungry the whole time.  He has shot the spectrum of little bucks, spikes, forks, baby sixes and a little eight.  He has no problem doing this as "it is tougher to get a buck".  Since my 13 pointer, I have no problem shooting a nice doe, since the meat tastes the same, but I don't want to shoot a "small" buck, let him grow.  He wouldn't understand if I told him that I passed on a buck, no matter what size it was.  Does anybody else have this crazy idea in the back of their head?  They changed us from an intensive harvest to managed area this year.  We hunt private land with miles of Tamarack swamp around us, no pressure to move the deer, so it is tough to see deer.  He just started a food plot this summer.  We're not hunting 3rd weekend or muzzleloader, so the first two weekends count.  How do you tell the guy to let the little ones go?  He's kind of controversial.

There's alot of ways to go about explaining this to someone. Question is, does he own the land?

If he does it is his choice and all you can do is try and show him your 13 point wall-hanger in person, and tell him this is what he can look forward to. Other than that, you're @# out of luck unless you can promise to drop off a doe you shoot as the "extra meat" he needs.

I live in an intensive harvest area where we can get up to 6 or 7 tags through the bow/gun seasons, so I am not a good example of "needing" meat, but consider myself a meat hunter through the season as time doesn't allow me the chance to get after the bucks I would like to harvest. With that said I will not shoot a small buck unless it is a mature one, and try to only take does.

If it comes down to someone only having a couple mornings or evenings due to schedules, etc.. I can understand a persons itchy finger to want to down a fork or six for meat if you are up in the northland.

Tim (MNO) brings up a good point though. If there were a chance to shoot a doe or a slob buck for the "meat hunter", we all know which one would bite the dust. I also know which meat will taste better (in my opinion of course).

Good luck!

[Cody Gruchow]

i have to agree with "mno" on this one. you cant expect to see bigger bucks(all though it does happen on occasion) if you shoot all the little ones. how will they get a chance to grow? i to practice QDM. we have a 8 point or better rule and you can use your own judgement on if the 8 pointer is big enough or not. we see lots of 8 pointers but none to me are big enough. alot of 1.5 year old deer who have alot of potential. some bucks arent able to get any bigger than a basket rack(bad genes) like johns 200 lb fork horn. then shoot that one. also cant use the mentality that if i dont shoot it the neighboor will. how do you know the buck will even go that far? if your a meat hunter than shoot a doe or maybe even a spike( "mno") and yes young fawns sure are tasty little things, nothing better. i convinced my uncles to try QDM 4 years ago and they have never turned back. so it does work.

[Randy Kaar]

I have a little 10 acres that the nieghbors have ask me not to hunt.... Why? It is a breeding/ birthing ground. It is still our base camp but will be no deer hunting there. They have given us
access to 4 properties that total around 400 acres, 75 of that, The owner wants does only. We
will take only does the first 2 weekends. [does are better tasting in my opinion] The last weekend
we will take anything except on the 75 unless it is huge. We are expecting a good year. We been
skunked the last couple years with bow and the boys with guns...

randy

[JohnWester]

no offense taken MNO

that's why I said 200 pound 4 pointer... if it's a small one, I would let it go and hope the next guy does the same. But as the season gets later, my standards will go down a bit.  I will load up on 2 or 3 does, and wait as long as I can for a bigger buck.  And mind you, I am not taking these deer all from the same 80 acre piece of land... I get around in oct. and nov.  I'll take one in metro, and a few up north from grand rapids to bemidji, where we have land to hunt in between.  I enjoy the hunt, the bonding with my boys, but I do it for the meat too.  Your 14 point rack might look good on the wall, but they don't taste as good as my yearling steaks.

[Ryan]

Some people say they need the meat, but if you add up the cost of hunting, in a lot of cases it is much cheaper to just go buy the meat from the grocery store.  I am happy to shoot does and if I big buck comes along that is just a bonus.  I am also lucky to hunt in an area where it is almost a guarantee to be able to shoot a doe or four every year.  Maybe if I hunted in the thick woods way up north I might think differently.

[kenhuntin]

Deer hunting is kinda a progressive stage thing. As time goes by a guy realizes that passing on a small buck or two the next year they are bigger. Brown its down is a young hunter usually. I just laugh. Some guys never get out of the idea that they are a better person if they shoot a little buck over a doe. Minnesota had been killing off the big bucks and their gene pool with the buck only law. I am glad to see that is changing. You cannot tell this guy what deer he can shoot and what he can't. You can limit his welcome though. Like when he strolls in prouder than a peacock with a spike buck you can mention what a poor excuse he is for a sportsman. the rest of your hunt may be a living hell on account of that but careful persuasion will eventually win.

[The General]

I agree with Ken and the age thing.  When I was younger and only slug hunted it was a lot cooler to say I shot a buck.  Then I took up Archery and left the gun and my attitude began to change.  I usually wait until after the rut is over for the big one and then any Doe will do.  This year I hope to be done after Ripley with a nice buck or a Doe.  Then I can concentrate the rest of the year watching my dog work.

[BiggA]

Doesnt really matter but out of curiosity How many people that say they will only shoot big bucks or doeshave access to private land? I would bet most. If given the option, both presented at the same time I would take the doe over the young buck but if all I see is a 6 or even a fork I am taking that deer. As far as deer hunting for meat being expensive? The original investment is (your gun or bow clothes etc.) but each year it costs 27 bucks to buy a tag. I get alot more meat for that 27 bucks than I could at any grocery store.
This is definately an oppinionated subject and it is alot like democrat vs republican in my opinion. Both sides have arguments and neither side really hears the other due to their own beliefs.
I think of it this way every doe shot is 2 or 3 deer out of next years herd. A buck is 1. As a father about to have a young hunter entering this sport I would rather my son have the oppurtunity to see deer every year even if they are younger deer than not see deer as often because we shoot all the does and wait for that BIG buck. As a hunter that hunted in a intensive harvest area for the last few years I can say that shooting does makes a huge impact on population. The first couple years hunting this area it was nothing to see deer every day. Now you feel lucky if you see one in a 2 week season of shotgun hunting plus the 2 days of early doe!

[deadeye]

BiggA is right, it is probably a lot easier for a land owner to practice QDM than someone who hunts only public land.  For the record, I hunt my own land and we do practice QDM.  As for the cost, I don't even want to go there.  My guess is my venison costs about $50.00 a pound so obviously I'm not hunting for food.   

[Randy Kaar]

For me, It doesnt really matter if I shoot a deer or not. That would be a bonus for sure! I just
like being in the woods and sitting around the fire at night with the gang. I been hunting with
a bow for 25 years and still havent shot a deer. But I sure have a good time every year! This
will be my first year not being camp cook for gun season. 

randy

[Mayfly]

Everyone has opinions on this subject and all make sense in their own way. The only way to ever change the mentality is to do it by majority. I like to refer to walleye fishing. One opener on Mille Lacs we were fishing in an area with tons of boats. Well one angler caught a pig walleye and the cameras were going and people were watching. Well after the pictures were done the fish disappeared in the boat and a neighboring boat let out a booo, then another and it followed from there. Next thing ya know that guy grabs the fish and back in the water it goes. The area erupted in applause. It was quite the sight. Start seeing that type of reaction when people shoot spikes and small racked deer and then you'll start seeing a change. And as far as meat hunting and cost. If your loading a shell in you gun and shooting one out the back door then I can see it may be cheaper but add gas, food and everything else and it gets expensive. Also, think about the labor. I tell ya what... I'd rather walk down to the grocery store or meat shop and buy some cheap steak than sit in a tree when its 15 degrees and windy just to shoot, gut, drag and butcher a deer... Hell, if you just want the meat maybe we should get in contact and i'll get you a doe next weekend. 

[Randy Kaar]

You get me some roasts and i will make you some jerky! 

randy

[Mayfly]

You get me some roasts and i will make you some jerky! 

randy

Its a deal.

I'll bring the chainsaw too........ 

[Randy Kaar]

OK, Deal! Now we will all see if you can get the doe! We need pics! 

randy

[atcher]

Sorry, I guess I failed to give some important information in my original post.  What I meant to say is that our triailer is on 30 acres of private land owned by a co-worker of my hunting partner (none of which is hunted by either one of us.)  The land owner and his son typically hunt it the first two weekends, not venturing out into the public land where we hunt.  Like I said, when we go back into the swamp, we are the only guys out there with the closest hunters at least 1/4 mile away.  We also hunt 1/4 mile away from each other most of the time.  That is a lot of woods/swamp between him and myself and anybody else for that matter to move/spook deer.  I agree with the other posts as far as fishing walleyes, it is a no-brainer to release a bigger walleye (over 22"?) back to give us more walleye.  Sorry I can't tell the difference in male/female walleye when not full of eggs.  I hunt deer for the special feeling it gives me, whether I am helping with deer management or hanging out at the trailer with some guys that I only see once or twice a year, telling stories of any kind and bonding.  I could say that I hunt for meat, but I would be lying.  Yes, I would rather go into the local locker and get some red meat for a lower price per pound than venison.  Has anybody actually calculated the price per pound for venison, I am sure it is more than lobster.  So short story long, I just get discouraged at times listening to my hunting partner if I shoot a doe and he gets a little buck and somehow he is a "better" hunter than I am because he got a buck and I didn't.  That buck would have made it till next season and gotten bigger, and I would have had a shot at shooting him.  Maybe that is how it is hunting with your best friend each year, and he is mad that every time he comes over, he has to look at my old deer hanging on the wall.

Thanks for reading...........

[Big E]

Atcher I feel your pain more than you know!!!!! I once was a "brown it's down" and "If I don't shoot it the next guy will" and "Oh I'm a meat hunter"........until I shot a nice 2 1/2 yr old 8pt. Not a giant but it's on the wall and I'm damn proud of it. So I started doing research on QDMA and tried for yrs to get everyone in our camp to get involved. The first 3 yrs I was the only one doing it. Yeah one 5 pt I passed my Dad shot but guess what the other 4 spikes and forks didn't get shot. Every yr since that first yr we started seeing more and more bigger bucks. Finaly got everyone to do buck management. Now if you shoot a deer with "Wood" you HAVE to get a shoulder Mount. Yes a shoulder mount. We do have a wall of shame. We only have 80 acres and you want to talk about hunting pressure???? We have 4 groups of hunters that border our land. One is a group of 13 guys that own 160 acres and shoot everything in sight. Another is a group of 10 and growing (the one guys has 9 children and every yr one turns 12 it seems) They shoot everything they see. Our neighbor to the south has 6 people hunt and shoot everything they see. We pass on the small bucks and yes every yr we get a big buck or 2 and have many more chances.
 My advice is keep on him. Don't let him use your tag, get a trail camera and once he sees the big ones are out there he'll get some sence in him. It only takes 1 yr of passing them up for them to be big. 115"-130" bucks are nice bucks! Every year go for one bigger.

[atcher]

Thanks Big E for feeling my "pain".  I am heading up to 38 and my hunting partner is 49.  We are BFF's according to the new era scheme of things.  I feel sorry for him for not getting a "wall hanger", doesn't happen every year.  Anyway, I also have another friend that is reaching 65 years of fun in life, has hunted his own private 80 acres for 30 years and doesn't have a deer on the wall.  Back in the day, they probably shot anything that walked in front of a 30-06.  I have known him for 15 years now, learned quite a few things from him about life and about hunting...blah, blah, blah...These days, he is practicing deer management.  He lets the little bucks go, and passing on does that might be full of milk......... I am learning from him, or listening too much.  Big E, sounds like it is working for you at your camp....congratulations on getting the message across to your partners.

[dakids]

I also feel your pain, I am also the only one passing on the little bucks. I agree with you BigE about getting the trail cam.  Every time we look at the pictures with my brothers and dad I make sure that my daughter is also there.  She has never shot a deer and is going this year for the first time.  She will give them a hard time and say that that buck is WAY to small to shoot and that she is going to shoot the big bucks or one of the does because you will never get to shoot a big buck if you always shoot the little guys.  At first they just dismissed her but I can already see that they are at least starting to feel a little differently about the brown its down montra.  Hopefully they will pass on the little bucks.

[HD]

Well, I can tell ya....that we practice QDM, and it's prolly one of the hardest things to get peole on board with. But, the type of QDM we practice is a little different than most. I take out kids just learning to hunt, and let them shoot the bucks with the promise that the next buck they shoot has to be bigger than the one they got the year before. Some kids get buck fever and shoot smaller ones, but most hold out for a decent buck. I, myself, am a doe hunter....I have a 150 class on the wall, and have not shot another buck since then. (Might be hard to top it, but I'm still trying) 

So, with your friend....you might have to just keep after him. Some people will never change and some people will.

Patients is a vertue, and hard to be taught....I know, been doing it for years!

Hunter

[Big E]

It has worked on our little 80 acres. I seen a very nice 9 pointer tonight and had 2 new bucks on camera that made our hit list. Just keep passing the small guys up. It only takes one good buck to get someone on the QDMA train. Dakids sounds like you have your daughter on the right path. Hope she gets a big one this year. Yeah the cameras do help out a lot. If you know the big guy is around you can pass the little ones up easier and you have WAY more patience sitting in a stand. It makes the hunt more exciting knowing any minute he could walk buy.

[BiggA]

This argument almost boils into small man syndrome. I am not insulting anybody here or calling anyone small to be clear. But after reading this all I can think of is how everyone needs a bigger this or that to be better. Whether it be truck fish deer boat whatever the case people are no longer happy in this country with average or just having one it has to be the bigger one.
Now in saying that if I am hunting somewhere where someone wishes that only bigger deer be shot than i would oblige their wishes. I Just feel it is pushing this sport more towards a money sport than an enjoyable family past time. Pretty soon people realize their are bigger deer in this area and watch the rich dish out thousands of dollars to lease up land that was huntable to others previously. 

[deadeye]

BiggA,
I thing a lot has to do with human nature and what we are taught.  Not many go to school or start some other project just to do "average".  Most people strive to do better than the next. Prime example, Twins, Vikings etc. They do better by getting more wins, higher average than the rest.  Same goes with hunting. Most need something to gage their hunt against others.  Not many bowlers, shooters, or golfers say "I did great, got my average".  I doubt many hunting camps have a competition to see who can shoot the most average deer.  Everything is rated by some criteria.  Deer are no exception.  I'm not saying an individual can't be totally satisfied by shooting (or not shooting) an average deer, I just saying that most things need some sort of report card to judge the results. Hunting is not exempt from this.