Great Info!

[plotter]

hey guys, i just wanted to say thanks. there is a lot of great info in here! i found it from your facebook page and have been reading a couple weeks now. anyways, thanks. now for my question.

my brother told me that we should lay some clover down in our woods. we basically have no equipment but want to do something. i wish i had pictures but what we did was as soon as the snow melted we started raking and raking our forest floor. we picked the spots by our stand and areas where there wasn't much growth on the forest floor. we raked and raked and it was basically dirt and not much more. they we had a hand held broadcaster and spread the heck out of it with a clover mix that we bought at the store. that was weeks ago and we haven't been back. i'm going up next week to get the boat out for fishing. am i going to be disappointed or do you guys think there will be growth? either way this has been a great learning year and i have learned a lot here. thanks

[Randy Kaar]

Welcome to the site! There is a ton of great info here!

 

randy

[HD]

You are gonna have to put some lime down, if you are going to have a chance at growth for clover.

Some store boughten blends do not grow in certain areas. You need to read the package carefully.

Are there pine trees around? Cause that will make the soil acidic (sp) and will have a hard time growing without a soil test.

[Lee Borgersen]

HEY, plotter

 

We need you to sign up for the 2010 Fishing Challenge. It's free and it's fun with prizes.

Check it out http://mnoutdoorsman.com/forums/index.php?topic=19657.0

[Big E]

You'll have clover starting to come up don't worry about that. Do you remember what brand bag you planted. Some clovers do better in different conditons. Alsike, Ladino and reds like medium or mamouth are pretty bullet proof. They can handle low ph, shade and wet soils. Sounds like you had seed to soil contact which is the most important thing.
 It wouldn't be a bad idea to pick up some pelletized lime and spread it on to raise your ph. If it is a hidden plot in the woods you could pretty much bet the farm you have a low ph. The clover will still grow if you don't but it will help out a lot. Local co ops have it for pretty cheap. Make sure it's pelletized lime and not the powder ag lime.

[bowhunter73]

I agree with BIG E but what I want to know is how did it look?

[plotter]

I agree with BIG E but what I want to know is how did it look?

I didnt take a picture but there actually is some clover growing! Man i am thrilled. its obviously not liek some of these pictures but its about ankle high in spots with a lot of weeds mixed in. I also forgot my trail cam  but wonder if the deer will eat it? Will they pick through the weeds to eat out the clover?

Thanks again food plot people! 

[Big E]

Yeah if there is clover in there they will be in there eating. You can spray round up on it and the weeds will die and the clover will survive it. It may turn a little yellow but it will green back up a few days later.

[dakids]

For the clover to survive doesn't it have to be a couple of years old? fresh seedlings will die?

[Dotch]

It's dependent on what kind of rate was used, what kind of weeds are targeted, additives, age and stage of growth on the clover as well as the conditions prior to and following spraying. Personally I think it's playing with fire especially on food plots where some have no clue as to how much per acre they're getting on. Particularly if you're using rates much over a quart per acre of the 41% generic material, would still expect the injury to be substantial. And not only that, since there's no residual activity, by stunting the clover it opens up the opportunity for another flush of competing weeds to get going in the meantime. As we've known for a long time, glyphosate is a pretty good grass killer and just an OK broadleaf killer especially on perennials. Using the qt. rate 15 years ago to control alfalfa, we were amazed after the way it was yellowed up it survived as did the dandelions while the quackgrass was deader than a doornail. Toss a pt. to a qt./acre of 2,4-D into the mix and it was a different ballgame but I digress. Doesn't surprise me that clover would tolerate glyphosate pretty well as the white clover along the fences where I spray survives rather nicely. For red or white clover, it takes 3 - 5 qts./acre for control on the fully loaded generic 41% material labels and on Monsanto's Weathermax it's 2 - 3.3 qts./acre. But, if it were the clear deal, it would be labelled for in crop control & everyone would be doing it.I'd be danged careful about trying it on more than a trial basis.

[Mayfly]

As we've known for a long time, glyphosate is a pretty good grass killer and just an OK broadleaf killer especially on perennials.

I almost bought Round-Up which is 41% Gly but got a different brand with the same amount. That is what I was told to use to kill off a new plot that I cut out.

Am I going down the wrong path here? Do I need something else???

I want to kill everything and kill it good!

[Dotch]

Use it at a high enough rate to kill what you're after and you'll be fine. To clarify what I was trying to say in the quote, relatively speaking, glyphosate is considered a better grass killer than it is a broadleaf killer. Most of the grasses can be controlled at significantly lower rates than broadleaf weeds, and that's whether it's perennial or annual.

We oversee the application of thousands of acres worth of glyphosate each year now that we have Round Up Ready crops. I am also a WSSA and NCWSS member, have been for some 20 odd years. I quit going to the NCWSS meetings about 8 years ago, partially due to scheduling conflicts, I didn't need the CEU's, and also due to the fact there was only about so much you could do with glyphosate other than listen to Monsanto tell us that weeds would not become resistant to it. Now we have at least 3 confirmed broadleaf species that are resistant in MN with some others on the watch list or exhibiting increased tolerance, not to mention some subtle and not so subtle species shifts. Glyphosate is a great product but like any other weed control chemical, there are chinks in its armor. Misuse of the product only exacerbates it. I stand by what I wrote about using it on established clover in food plots. Be careful what you wish for.

[HD]

Dotch....is velvet leaf one of the ones that are resistant to round up?
That stuff is a bugger to kill!

[HUNTER2]

I mix in some Curtail with my roundup to kill off the thisles. I have some of those in my plots. I should have took a picture of my 4 wheeler the other day stuck in the marshy gunk tring to get to one of my plots to spray.

[Dotch]

Dotch....is velvet leaf one of the ones that are resistant to round up?
That stuff is a bugger to kill!

Velvetleaf so far has not been shown anywhere I am aware of to be resistant in MN, yet. The 3 so far that are of economic importance are giant ragweed, common ragweed and common waterhemp. Lambsquarters is another that is suspected to be resistant and has been showing signs of needing increased rates to control it. It would not be surprising as it has demonstrated resistance to other families of chemistry, namely the triazines in MN. Velvetleaf is one of those unique plants in that it raises and lowers its solar collectors (leaves) based on time of day. When we get into late afternoon, the velvetleaf begins to fold those leaves down making contact with the leaves due to the spray angle more difficult. In the morning it begins to raise its leaves back to a more horizontal position. It's best generally if velvetleaf is an issue to go after it during prime spraying hours namely from 10 a.m. - 2 p.m. Sometimes when we've had hot or cool dry conditions and the sprayer kicks up a lot of dust, we get dust interference on the leaves which ties up the glyphosate and reduces the % control on not just velvetleaf but in particular lambsquarter. This is usually noticeable in the wheel tracks and between them in the center sections of the boom. We've played with nozzle angles, nozzle placement, additional surfactant, speed, etc., etc. Slowing down and keeping the dust to minimum has probably been the most effective but sometimes nothing helps if the conditions are wrong.

[deadeye]

Dotch,
Absolutely fantactic information.  It will greatly help us wannabe/pretend/practice farmers.
AKA food ploters.  
Thanks for the taking the time to explain the ins and outs of weed spraying.  

[Mayfly]

Ditto!

Very informative 

[Randy Kaar]

I hope to start my build on a weed sprayer for the ATV. I am getting a RV water pump and hook it to a PCV boom and mount it to the back rack. Should work... I think.

randy

[Dotch]

Thanks guys! If there's one thing about my business and playing around here at the ranch I enjoy, it's finding creative methods to torment weeds. That includes chemical, mechanical as well as 4-legged control methods. I have a sneaking suspicion there are a lot of others on these boards cut out of much the same cloth. "Hold my beer and watch this!"

If you can get 20 - 60 psi out of your pump Randy you should be golden. The only question I would have is how it might handle some chemicals if its primary function is to pump water. Not being familiar with RV pumps, maybe they're the same pump for all I know. The worst that could happen would be that eventually something would give out and you'd have to replace it with an electric one designed for a sprayer. Fortunately they're not terribly expensive.

[Randy Kaar]

It is a 12 volt pump and puts out 40 PSI It didnt cost me anything so no big loss if it pukes!
I have to find some sprayer jets though.

randy

[Big E]

I used a little over a pint per acre on my clover this yr. I have very good success with this rate killing the problem weeds in my clover plots and making a thick stand of clover. I don't spray clover that was just seeded or that has just germinated. I spray clover that is established and growing. I've now sprayed my spring brassica plot 3 times that had very little clover planted with it last yr (by accident) and the clover is still green. If I want to kill this clover (and I do) I should use 3-5 quarts of gly? I use Cornerstone if that helps.

[Dotch]

Yup, that's what it claims under the "All other perennials" portion of the label. Wish you continued success with the pt. rate. Small weeds of the right species and low densities and you should make it work, for awhile. 

[HUNTER2]

I think  have been useing about 6 quarts of Round Up per 30 gallons. Not sure if that is overkill or not.

[Big E]

Yup, that's what it claims under the "All other perennials" portion of the label. Wish you continued success with the pt. rate. Small weeds of the right species and low densities and you should make it work, for awhile. 

Well I will try that rate the next time. I'd really like to get rid of it. It's not doing anything bad really because it's only a couple small patches. Just annoying looking at a all dead plot with a couple round spots of green.

[Mayfly]

Since we are on the topic of Gly and killing weeds... How many days does it take to get a good kill after application??

[Dotch]

It varies somewhat with rate and conditions but the standard has been with deep rooted perennials about 3 days. Annuals probably less than that. That said, to be on the safe side we usually tell people to leave the stuff alone for a week before tillage, mowing, etc. There is a provision on the glyphosate labels for spraying standing alfalfa, cutting in 24 - 48 hrs. and harvesting for hay. We've done it and it does work.