Deer Hunting Issues to discuss

[MTCOMMER]

Alright guys, I know deer season is a little ways away, but I was listening to outdoor radio today on my way back home and they were talking about some different issues that can be pretty contraversial (sp).
First, in light of the muzzleloader permit needed to put a scope on your gun, based on visual impairment.  They brought up some other issues about crossbows, should we have a designated crossbow season between archery and firearm, this would be where anyone could use a crossbow to take a deer during that season.
They also got into changing the seasons to allow the firearm season to start after the rut, like it most other neighboring states (to my knowledge we have the earliest start to the firearm season, Wisc starts late Nov and I believe Iowa starts in Dec?)
With that later season, they talked about a designated crossbow season at somepoint (just like they have for muzzleloaders).

What are your thoughts on crossbows, as use in a regular season, instead for only those with disabilities who are unable to draw a regular compound?  

For you bow hunters, what are your thoughts on delaying the firearm season a few weeks and allow only archery during the MN rut?   Would you gun hunters be against the move?

Do you guys agree with the muzzleloader scope permit?  - personally, i dont hunt the muzzleloader season, so it doesnt effect me, but I would be interested to hear from the guys who use a scope on their gun.

Im sure there are other realted issues, so please share your concerns, im interested to see what everyones thoughts are!

[Mayfly]

Just a quick couple thoughts on the subject....

I do not think that there should be a designated cross bow season. No way. And yes I think it should just be for those with disabilities. That is fine. As far as moving the rifle season... I would LOVE to see it but do not think we ever will. Too many rifle hunter and too much tradition. The main reason that we would like to season that season moved is to get the guns out of the woods during a bucks most vulnerable time of life. What I could see happening to combat this is more QDM. Its an issue and way of deer hunting that needs to be pushed here in Minnesota. It will take time but it will catch on just like fishing.... its a process and will never happen overnight. If it is something that you believe in then YOU need to start because it has got to start somewhere. Lastly, I do not and have never hunted with a muzzleloader. At this time I am indifferent when it comes to the scope issue during the season.

[MNBucKKiller]

As for muzzleloaders I do not think scopes are necessary. 

As for cross bows I believe anyone can use these during the riffle hunt?  I could be wrong on that.

I do not think the season should be moved, what the heck's the difference If I shoot a deer now or next week. 

I agree with almost all of the deer hunting laws, they are working.  Deer hunting gets better and better every year.  Bigger and bigger bucks are being taken, plus there are plenty of does for those "meat hunters"

[MTCOMMER]

The reason there is a big issue on the gun season being during the rut is that bucks are vulnerable during that time (as Tim said), and hunting is alot easier and the deer will come closer because all they want to do is mate - they pay no attention to those usual elements that would make them spook.  A perfect example was my buck this year, my girlfriend was fiddling with coughdrops and making noise and we both had methnol coughdrops in at that point, the wind was right, so im sure he couldnt smell the coughdrops, but i know he could hear all the noise we were making (we were watching three other deer I wasnt going to shoot so it wasnt a big deal at the time)  But that buck was gung-ho in the does scent and didnt care about the noise, I think that would have been different the next week or so.  Also, you can take those shots longer shots with a firearm that would wouldnt take with a bow, 30+, 50+ depending on the deer and person's hunting ability.
A later season will also allow alot of those big bucks to mate the does, since less deer are taken with a bow.  Would that have an effect on the genetics of the deer heard?

I would actually be for moving the season, it would also make for a more interesting archery season, and now that im into archery hunting, it will be in my favor.

[Mayfly]

The reason there is a big issue on the gun season being during the rut is that bucks are vulnerable during that time (as Tim said), and hunting is alot easier and the deer will come closer because all they want to do is mate - they pay no attention to those usual elements that would make them spook.  A perfect example was my buck this year, my girlfriend was fiddling with coughdrops and making noise and we both had methnol coughdrops in at that point, the wind was right, so im sure he couldnt smell the coughdrops, but i know he could hear all the noise we were making (we were watching three other deer I wasnt going to shoot so it wasnt a big deal at the time)  But that buck was gung-ho in the does scent and didnt care about the noise, I think that would have been different the next week or so.  Also, you can take those shots longer shots with a firearm that would wouldnt take with a bow, 30+, 50+ depending on the deer and person's hunting ability.
A later season will also allow alot of those big bucks to mate the does, since less deer are taken with a bow.  Would that have an effect on the genetics of the deer heard?

I would actually be for moving the season, it would also make for a more interesting archery season, and now that im into archery hunting, it will be in my favor.

Its every archers dream to have the woods to ourselves those premium days!

[MNBucKKiller]

so you (as a bow hunter) just want the woods to your self during the rut, sounds selfish...

[Outdoors Junkie]

They also got into changing the seasons to allow the firearm season to start after the rut, like it most other neighboring states (to my knowledge we have the earliest start to the firearm season, Wisc starts late Nov and I believe Iowa starts in Dec?)

South Dakota firearm season runs the whole month of November.  It starts the 1st and end the 31st.

Which makes it nice to chase bucks in the later part of the month that are in the peak of the rut. 

I also hunt in MN every year, and there are years like this past that are way before the peak rut activity.

[Go Big Red!]

so you (as a bow hunter) just want the woods to your self during the rut, sounds selfish...

I wouldn't go that far with saying selfish.  Who doesn't want the woods to themselves? I sure do and yet, I don't bow hunt either.

[HD]

Do you guys agree with the muzzleloader scope permit?  - personally, i dont hunt the muzzleloader season, so it doesnt effect me, but I would be interested to hear from the guys who use a scope on their gun.

Well, I've hunted mith a muzzy for a LONG time...
And, now that I am older...things start to fade....when I hit 50, my eyes took a 
(I can see fine far away...just nothing in front of my face)
The sights on my muzzy are now blurry when shouldered. I love the sport so much, that I would hate to wound an animal that I cannot recover. Therefore, in my case it was either quit hunting with a open site rifle or put a scope on it. So, in my case I opted for the scope. Does it make me any better of a shot? I don't think so....

[22lex]

I would be all for the moving of the rifle/gun season to not coordinate with the prime of the rut just for the pure fact that it would let a certain percentage of immature bucks live a year or two longer. I could care less about having the woods to myself 'cause I never do anyways. Like someone else said however, I can't see this happening due to traditions and such.

It's pretty much impossible to get everyone inclusive with QDM as I have been listening to people talk about it since I first started bowhunting. Everyone can play their part, but all it takes is one group of "horn slobs" to ruin what immature deer you personally passed numerous times in the field. When I say horn slobs I mean the guys that have a doe tag down here but get the trigger finger when anything 5" to 90" runs by them.

I'm pretty mixed on the whole sights for muzzleloader thing. I have a buddy who has strickly been using muzzleloader for shotgun season down here, and has consistently been knocking down deer with his muzzy from 175+ for quite a while now (with a scope). For the elderly, I can see this helping during muzzle season, but for everyone else, it kind of just takes another piece of tradition away from this "traditional" form of hunting. I personally wouldn't use one during season as most of my shots are 50-90 yds away.

[deadeye]

Move the gun season out of the "rut" would not have much effect on the hunters that drive deer.  Maybe more hunters will do deer drives if the season is set later in the year.

[dakids]

Move the gun season out of the "rut" would not have much effect on the hunters that drive deer.  Maybe more hunters will do deer drives if the season is set later in the year.

Deaedeye I agree that moving the hunt out of the rut will not effect the hunters that make deer drives.  Other states that have their season outside the rut can and do do deer drives.  In the northern part of the state deer drives don't work as well because it is forested and the deer easily get around you or just sit tight. 

If the rifle season is moved out of the rut the deer season should be closed for everybody.   Nobody would go for this.  And the largest bucks would never get shot.  The only times that the biggest and oldest deer are on their feet during daylight is during the rut. 

I don't have a problem with crossbows.  The modern verticle bows are just as fast, quieter, and flat shooting as the horizontal bows.  Verticle bows have huge let off, mechanicle releases, lighted sites, which are way different than the old recurves that were the origan of bowhunting.

Scopes on muzzel loaders are ok as they are just the next step in technology. 


The advances in tech happen in all things and they become a reality.  Think about where we have come from.  When bow seasons were started by Fred Bear way back when.  Longbows with the fingers.  Then a recurve with finger tabs.  Big leaps with the introduction of cams, sight pins, peep sights. and then the biggest one, mech. releases.  Arrows are getting lighter, faster, and straighter
     Guns are getting more accurate, faster.  The scopes are light gathering, more mag. and clearer.
     Muzzle loaders were flintlock,  then percusion caps, then inline.


All of this is driven by big money.  It will be very hard to stop.

I predict.
The deer season will not move.
Scopes will be allowed on muzzies next year.
There will eventually be a crossbow season in less than 5 years.
Point restrictions in 10 years.
No cross tagging of bucks in 5 years.


 

[MTCOMMER]

Point restrictions in 10 years.

That might be a little tough to regulate, since points only need to be an inch and at some distance, it may be hard to determine.  I do think that would be a decent idea, atleast to some extent, this will stop the shooting of spike bucks and those 1-2 year guys.

What would be a reasonable restriction, A buck must have more than 4 points, more than 6 points, 8 points?

[Mayfly]

Reasonable point restriction would be a 4x4 aka 8 points.

[dakids]

I'd be happy with 3 on one side for a start.  Make people look before they shoot.

[MTCOMMER]

I'd be happy with 3 on one side for a start.  Make people look before they shoot.

I was also thinking 3x3.  Because there are some pretty big 6 points, or even older deer that will grow a smaller rack.
Because what would happen if a 4 or 5 year old buck only grows 6 points that year - dont buck racks decline in points and just gain mass as they get older (or is that a myth or something I just made up)

[Big E]

Move the gun season back!!!!!! I have been saying this on this site for a while now. I've been a believer in this for a long time! My reasons are not so I can hunt the rut with my bow but it would GREATLY increase our deer numbers, size and also better meat....I'll explain each before you think I'm nuts.

Numbers: Yes numbers. When a doe is being chased out of her comfort zone (bedding) she get's shot. How many times have we shot a doe and then seen a big rack bound back into the thicket? Another reason is the more doe that get pregnant within a few days means a better fawn survival rate. How you ask? When the majority of the does have their fawns around the same time it is a mass production. Fawns are most vulnerable the first couple weeks. When they all drop at one time predators can't keep up with all of it. When they birthing is more spread out the feast lasts for a month or more. Also if the doe gets pregnant the first time she is bred she will have her fawns early and we won't have 50lb yearling deer running around that winter. Bigger healthier fawns with a higher survival rate means more deer. Stressed out does during the rut have a higher chance of not getting pregnant.

Size: The dumbest deer in the woods during the rut is a 1 1/2 yr old buck. They wonder around from property to property looking for a chance to breed. Move this back 2 weeks and he won't be so horned up and have a better chance at making it through the yr. I don't care what anyone says but a 2 1/2 yr old deer is a nice buck. Trophy is in the eye of the beholder. People start seeing more 2 1/2 yr olds walking around they might be more apt to say..."Let's give him another yr." Or they might shoot it and put their hands on a rack instead of spikes and get the itch like I did to get one bigger. Genes are genes by the way. A spike breeding a doe could have way better Genes then the 140 class 10pt that might breed her. So don't assume if the less dominate bucks breed a doe that it is a bad thing. If a big buck breeds 6 doe a season he's pretty tapped out and probably stressed and very low in weight.

Meat: A lot of the deer rifle seasons have been warm. I have pictures of me sitting on my first big buck and I have my shirt off because I was sweating from the 70 degree heat. Most of you have a cabin or trailer on a peice of property that doesn't have a walk in freezer, means to a lot of ice or a garden hose. A lot of us like to hang the deer and let the meat cure. The past 10 yrs we've had a lot of 50 degree and much warmer rifle openers. (I'M NOT TALKING OR AGREEING WITH GLOBAL WARMING) I'm just saying it would be nice to let my deer hang at deer camp and take pictures after the weekend is done instead of having to butcher it after registering it the day I shoot it. For you guys that mount your deer you should know the worst thing for the cape (hide) is heat. The taxidermist won't know it's bad until after he tans it in most cases. You get stuck paying for that work and another cape.

[MTCOMMER]

Now we all have proof that you are nuts.     hahha!  Just kidding, I agree with you!  I think everyone would like to have bigger and healthier deer, but in the same instance, people like to go out hunting and people like to shoot things (IF ITS BROWN, ITS DOWN  )
I never heard or thought about the numbers portion - especially the healthy fawns part!

[The General]

I'd like to see this and not a bunch of separate seasons.

Here is your archery season use a bow or crossbow.
Here is your guns season use the gun of your choice for which your area allows.
 

[Go Big Red!]

I cannot agree with a point restriction.  I love deer hunting, but I love it first and foremost because of family tradition and second, meat.  I am not interested in antler sizes and will shoot a doe opening day.  However, if I had to choose between a spike and a 10, I would shoot the ten of course.  I would take the more mature deer in that aspect, but if I don't have a choice(and I usually don't where I hunt), I pull the trigger on the spike.

[schwinger]

I'm with Big Red.

If I had my own plot of land I would probably use some form of QDM but on public lands having a point restriction is not something I could agree with. Just to many different reasons that people hunt and putting more restrictions is eventually going to lead to fewer hunters. IMO.

[Big E]

Now we all have proof that you are nuts.     hahha!  Just kidding, I agree with you!  I think everyone would like to have bigger and healthier deer, but in the same instance, people like to go out hunting and people like to shoot things (IF ITS BROWN, ITS DOWN  )

You needed more proof?! Thought we already established I was nuts? Just so I'm not putting out the wrong impression I wasn't talking about antler point restrictions or anything like that. I would just like to see the deer season moved back. I truely believe we would see greater numbers and bigger/healthier deer. There's "Brown is down" hunters in Kansas, Iowa and all of the big buck states but they still have a greater number of older class deer and the difference is the later season. 1 yr is all it takes for that spike to turn into a nice buck. When he's young and dumb and girl crazy and the woods are packed with hunters he has way less of a chance to make it.
 Personaly I would like to see more bigger bucks of course but I would also like to have a greater number of deer and healthier deer. Better fawn survival, lower temp openers so there's more of a chance to have snow on the ground and not have to worry about meat spoiling.....Snow! there's something I forgot. It's easier to see the deer and make out what is walking through the brush when there is a layer of snow on the ground and makes for easier dragging. See there really isn't a negative to this in my opinion.

[Cody Gruchow]

well Big E does have a good point, even though all his neighbors and family shoot the big deer  that hes after anyways  im just kidding. but maybe a earn a buck tag would work pretty well also i think, thats what wisconsin does and it obviously works. but its hard to do any of this because our state is so slow and they are stuck on traditions, i mean i dont think it would hurt traditions to move the season back lets say the week before thanksgiving. but i would for one like to see the muzzleloader season merge into the rifle season then and take some of the pressure off the deer in december when they are also very vulnerable and just as easy to figure pattern because they have switched there thinking from chasing tail to finding a productive food source, and end the archery season a week earlyer. now this affects me just as much as most because i hunt all 3 seasons, and live to be in the woods, but for a healthlyer(sp) deer heard you have to take alot of the stress off of them and have a higher survival rate, during the winter

[BiggA]

I think wisconsin did earn a buck for a very short time and the residents wanted to hang the dnr for instating such a  program. Some of my coworkers live and hunt there and people were picking up roadkill just to have it registered and then thrown back in the ditch so they could hunt the bucks. Forcing people to have to shoot more than one deer if they want to harvest a buck is wrong. It decreases population and that is all it is good for.
As far as antler restricictions in my opinion that would drive some hunters out of the sport making it less than a 50/50 harvest chance, which is probably what the QDM hunters would like to see. Less hunters means less people shooting their bucks. Intersting to see what the state might do stick with traditional family value hunting or go with big money sport hunting. I personally like being able to shoot any legal buck i see. I would not object to moving the season back and would definately eliminate early gun seasons.

[Cody Gruchow]

well i didnt know people went to the extent of picking up roadkill to register so they could hunt a buck. by no means do i want a statewide antler restriction to each there own i say about that

[Go Big Red!]

As a former resident of Wisconsin, I highly doubt people picked up roadkill.  The registration station were pretty damn tough with registering anterless deer for the EAB tag. 

Keep in mind though, the EAB program was met with A LOT of resistance especially in areas where CWD was and still is.  This seemed to be the main idea behind EAB in my opinion.  Has the EAB program helped?  Sure it did but the DNR still has issues with controlling CWD.  They won't control it regardless of what is done.  On the other hand, EAB has somewhat screwed a healthy deer herd.  As Cody mentioned before, deer are stressed out after the rut (assuming they make it) and why shoot so many does?  Sure you control the herd, but if a long cold winter hits or food sources disappear (deep snow pack) the herd suffers even more.  DNR can't predict that.

QDM is in place out east I believe, I want to say New York or Pennsylvania.  I think it's a 4 or 6 pt. minimum.  I wonder how that has gone for the hunters and the respective state DNR agencies.  QDM is what you make of it.  I don't practice it; never have and probably never will.  I hunt for meat and I will probably pass that concept onto my kids when they reach the hunting age.  But you never can say never.......

[Auggie]

Crossbows..........Who cares. Do they need a separate season? No. If you have a bow tag I have no problem with you hunting with one.
Scopes on smokepoles.............Again it really makes no difference to me. You still only have one shot and you have to make it. I don't think it would increase the harvest much anyway.
  As for management. Wow! Mn is such a diverse state as far as landscape. Vast timber to the north, flat farmland in the central,west, and SW and the rolling bluff country in the SE. I can't imagine a job I would like to have less than being the decision maker for this herd.
  That being said, I would like to see the gun seasons moved out of the rut. I wouldn't put up a fuss on antler restrictions either. I would LOVE to see cross tagging disappear. And if we are going to do a lottery system for our antlerless deer, lets shoot antlerless deer. No either sex tag.   
   It doesn't matter when the hunt is, all the guys that claim tradition can still hunt with family and friends. Tradition is a poor excuse. Start a new tradition. Just look at what a great tradition we have been given the opportunity to start with pheasants hunting. A nice hunt Christmas Day with family and friends. There is still plenty of opportunity to kill deer for the meat hunters as well with any of these regulations in place. You may need to change your ways a bit but it still exists with vast opportunity. We have a open deer season for 3+ months with one weapon or another. Try something new you might enjoy it. Our deer management is still based on the early 70's when the deer population was down. In most areas it is not down any longer. I would even go along with a system where we needed to draw for buck tags. I would rather shoot a nice buck every couple years than see small bucks running by my stand every year. This coming from someone who enjoys spending every hour I can in the stand with whatever weapon is legal at the time...........

[HUNTER2]

This last year I bought a trophy for the biggest buck taken. It goes to who ever shoots the biggest buck that year. Now the nephews are saying I want to get that big buck trophy instead of I'm shooting anything that walks by. My way of QDM without saying it to them.

[Big E]

QDM is in place out east I believe, I want to say New York or Pennsylvania.  I think it's a 4 or 6 pt. minimum.  I wonder how that has gone for the hunters and the respective state DNR agencies.  QDM is what you make of it.  I don't practice it; never have and probably never will. 

I talked with 2 guys from Penn at the ATA show in Ohio this yr and asked them about the point restriction and what they think of it. They both said when they made that law they both shot spikes just to despise the dnr. They said everyone HATED it. The state ran the Bioligist that started this rule out of the state by death threats and everything else towards him and his family......NOW the 2 guys said they can't find one person against it. After 4 yrs???? of the rule they said it's unreal the deer they see and get. One of them pulled 3 pictures out of his pocket from the last 3 yrs and the smallest buck was 172. Both the guys hunt public land I might add.
  After talking to these 2 guys I had changed my mind about the whole thing. So I wouldn't be against a antler point restriction. I think young hunters and people that have never registered a deer before should get a any sex any size tag though.

[stevejedlenski]

well i think that no matter what we have to go back to why there is a season and that is to control the population. without that we will be shut down by activists. so with that said i think the DNR needs to keep that #1 but balance it with good management so new hunters will carry on the tradition.

So let the DNR make regs as how it best fits the population goals and the QDM to the individual hunters, its growing already and we should see it soon.

Remember also what is happening in those "big buck" states??? RICHY RICH buys up all the land and leases it out when he or she doesn't draw a tag. then we have out of state hunters restricting land access.