Recent

Check Out Our Forum Tab!

Click On The "Forum" Tab Under The Logo For More Content!
If you are using your phone, click on the menu, then select forum. Make sure you refresh the page!

The views of the poster, may not be the views of the website of "Minnesota Outdoorsman" therefore we are not liable for what our members post, they are solely responsible for what they post. They agreed to a user agreement when signing up to MNO.

Author Topic: Switiching sides on APR  (Read 59093 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Stnmtz

  • Xtreme Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 343
  • Karma: +0/-0
Thats fine mattews... but like i said in my post above im NOT for any more regulations.  As far as campairing the average hunter or me to who im assuming are professional hunter your really not campairing apples to apples.  I have a job that i have to go to everyday like most people.  I put in the time and effort every year.  I just moved about 50 miles this year and i can honestly say that i had 6 trail cams out before i had my boxes unpacked trying to find the best place for stands to be set up.  Dont know how many hours i sat before season glassing for deer.  So next year i will have a little better feel about were to hunt but the chance im me getting the big boy i would like are slim to none
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Abraham Lincoln

Offline stevejedlenski

  • Master Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 614
  • Karma: +0/-0
i have heard ted nudget talk about this, why if we want big bucks dont we allow baiting? then everyone can have a standing deer, count antler tines, and see more deer in general. heck throw in a few high fences and were set! no more worries about the neighbor that way.

i like and agree with the last few comments (other than spray and pray blasting at deer). i have yet to hear any good argument on the APR side.
my wife said it.... im OFFICIALLY ADDICTED to MNO!!

Offline bweyer

  • Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 37
  • Karma: +0/-0
I like Ted Nugent, but you gotta admit he's a little off his rocker.

Offline nontypicalhunter

  • Xtreme Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 163
  • Karma: +0/-0
I like Ted Nugent, but you gotta admit he's a little off his rocker.

 I think the guy is great, he makes a lot of sense when he speaks.   :rocker;

Offline flowinggardens

  • Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 30
  • Karma: +0/-0
I am hoping they expand the APR, I hunt in the metro and we went from not seeing a track on our property to after 3 years of letting every doe and small buck walk, we had our best season of seeing deer in about 8, we now can count 5 does and 11 different bucks that frequent our small property, we have been trying to recruit all of our neighbors so far one is helping us and we think 2 others are playing ball. It takes alot to let deer walk knowing they could be shot 100 yards down the trail but if you can show them that you will do it they might follow your lead. I am hoping the APR  will be extended statewide, then everyone has to follow the same rules. 

PS we had alot of luck convincing our neighbors to pass the small bucks by showing them the trail cam photos we had, it put it in the back of there head that if they pass something bigger might come. Most people will say they dont care about big racks until they see one in there woods. I know its a risky move but it worked.

Offline mathews4ever

  • Xtreme Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 254
  • Karma: +0/-0
I am hoping the APR  will be extended statewide, then everyone has to follow the same rules. 

A guy named Vladimir Lenin had this same thought process back in 1917. We all seen how that turned out. You cannot just force somebody to do what you want, at least not in the America that we are supposed to live in.

It is truly disgusting that "hunters" would rather farm giant bucks with all their regulations, food plots, mineral sites and whatever the heck else crap they think is the silver bullet instead of just hunting the big bucks down. Why are trophy hunters so cotton pickin lazy. Sure there may not be a monster buck on your property. That sucks, get over it. I would love to shoot a Grizzly with my recurve, but they're pretty scarce on the property that I hunt. Should I contact the DNR and force legislation through that will get huge grizzlies in MN? NO, because that is dumb. I will just go to where the animal is that I want to hunt whether it be a grizzly or a monster whitetail buck.

I have already said it a few times, but nobody will address it, so I will say it again. APRs do not protect ALL young deer. They don't even protect ALL young bucks. All APRs protect is 1.5 year old bucks and bucks that never grow big racks because of poor genetics(smart move guys). They don't protect fawns(male or female) or young does. Last time I checked does are pretty important so why are they not protected under this legislation that is supposed to protect young deer?

Lets do the math. We will assume that a doe from 1.5 until 5.5 has 2 fawns a year. By shooting a 1.5 year old doe you are essentially removing potentially 11 deer from the herd(barring environmental stress and natural mortality). Now if I shoot a 1.5 year old buck I am removing one deer from the herd, because any does he would have bred will be bred by other bucks in the area. Obviously there are a lot of variables and this has been wildly simplified, but if nothing else it shows that young does would need as much or more protection than young bucks. How does APRs answer that?
"when a hunter is in a tree stand with high moral values and proper hunting ethics and richer for the experience, that hunter is twenty feet closer to god." -Fred Bear-

Offline HD

  • Administrator
  • Master Outdoorsman
  • *
  • Posts: 15867
  • Karma: +57/-23
  • #1 Judge (Retired)
    • Minnesota Outdoorsman
It would be interesting to see the demigraphics (sp), on how many pro APR folks live in rural areas compared pro APR folks that live in the metro areas.  :scratch:
Mama always said, If you ain't got noth'in nice to say, don't say noth'in at all!

Offline bweyer

  • Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 37
  • Karma: +0/-0
Enough about genetics. There are spike bucks that can be 150" bucks. Nobody knows there potential unless they're allowed to reach it. Plus the doe is 50% of the genetics. To me it's about not seeing the slaughter of young bucks year after year. I like how trophy hunters are called lazy. Don't know what trophy hunters you're talking about. Most work much harder then your average person. I don't call anyone else lazy for shooting the easiest young inexperienced buck in the woods. It's just about what each hunter wants. I want young deer to live. Some want to shoot anything. Not saying either is the correct way. Just saying I'm dealing with the regs in place now cause that's what the majority wants. If I'm ever in the majority then others will have to deal with those regs. Unless there's ever solid evidence against it I'll be for it.

Offline The General

  • MNO Staff
  • Master Outdoorsman
  • *
  • Posts: 6782
  • Karma: +20/-27
  • Smackdown King
bweyer, I don't think Matthews was saying all trophy hunters are lazy, as we all know different.  What I believe he is saying is their already are trophy bucks it's just that if you think you're going to put your stand up 2 days before season and then shoot one you're probably wrong.  To get the big ones you need to do the work. 
Eastwood v. Wayne Challenge Winner 2011

The Boogie Man may check his closet for John Wayne but John Wayne checks under his bed for Clint Eastwood

Offline The General

  • MNO Staff
  • Master Outdoorsman
  • *
  • Posts: 6782
  • Karma: +20/-27
  • Smackdown King
I am hoping they expand the APR, I hunt in the metro and we went from not seeing a track on our property to after 3 years of letting every doe and small buck walk, we had our best season of seeing deer in about 8, we now can count 5 does and 11 different bucks that frequent our small property, we have been trying to recruit all of our neighbors so far one is helping us and we think 2 others are playing ball. It takes alot to let deer walk knowing they could be shot 100 yards down the trail but if you can show them that you will do it they might follow your lead. I am hoping the APR  will be extended statewide, then everyone has to follow the same rules. 

PS we had alot of luck convincing our neighbors to pass the small bucks by showing them the trail cam photos we had, it put it in the back of there head that if they pass something bigger might come. Most people will say they dont care about big racks until they see one in there woods. I know its a risky move but it worked.

This couldn't have been accomplished without APR? :scratch:

Eastwood v. Wayne Challenge Winner 2011

The Boogie Man may check his closet for John Wayne but John Wayne checks under his bed for Clint Eastwood

Offline dakids

  • MNO Moderator
  • Master Outdoorsman
  • *
  • Posts: 5070
  • Karma: +9/-6
  • 2013 MNO Fishing Challenge Champ!
Lets do the math. We will assume that a doe from 1.5 until 5.5 has 2 fawns a year. By shooting a 1.5 year old doe you are essentially removing potentially 11 deer from the herd(barring environmental stress and natural mortality). Now if I shoot a 1.5 year old buck I am removing one deer from the herd, because any does he would have bred will be bred by other bucks in the area. Obviously there are a lot of variables and this has been wildly simplified, but if nothing else it shows that young does would need as much or more protection than young bucks. How does APRs answer that?
[/quote] from matthewsforever

APR were the least hated option that was put on the table that was intended to reduce the number of deer.  APR was intended to reduce does and help balance the herd.  A lot of hunters would rather shoot a fork or spike than shoot a doe.  I would rather have APR than earn a buck.
« Last Edit: November 11/28/12, 09:03:16 AM by dakids »
Anything that is free is worth saving up for.

Offline The General

  • MNO Staff
  • Master Outdoorsman
  • *
  • Posts: 6782
  • Karma: +20/-27
  • Smackdown King
Dakids,

If the true intent is to reduce the herd why not have people come and shoot them then.  For the people down in those areas where intensive harvest is taking place have private land owners open up their property (heck pay them a bit, cheaper then legislators getting involved and more regulation)and then have some place where people can find that information.  Last year I went  a week at a time without seeing a deer (and I have some pretty good land to hunt).  They gave out almost nothing in my areas this year for Doe permits for the gun season so I don't think the population needs much reduction around here.
Eastwood v. Wayne Challenge Winner 2011

The Boogie Man may check his closet for John Wayne but John Wayne checks under his bed for Clint Eastwood

Offline The General

  • MNO Staff
  • Master Outdoorsman
  • *
  • Posts: 6782
  • Karma: +20/-27
  • Smackdown King
It would be interesting to see the demigraphics (sp), on how many pro APR folks live in rural areas compared pro APR folks that live in the metro areas.  :scratch:

I would like that and to see them on those who are in a lottery area vs those in an intensive harvest area.
Eastwood v. Wayne Challenge Winner 2011

The Boogie Man may check his closet for John Wayne but John Wayne checks under his bed for Clint Eastwood

Offline Stnmtz

  • Xtreme Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 343
  • Karma: +0/-0
"APR were the least hated option that was put on the table that was intended to reduce the number of deer.  APR was intended to reduce does and help balance the herd.  A lot of hunters would rather shoot a fork or spike than shoot a doe.  I would rather have APR than earn a buck."

Why dont we do like south dakota does and apply for buck tags?  That what i would like to see changed
"It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt" Abraham Lincoln

Offline bweyer

  • Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 37
  • Karma: +0/-0
So I got curious and emailed the dnr. According to them they're getting more positive feedback this year on apr. Thought I'd share.

Offline HD

  • Administrator
  • Master Outdoorsman
  • *
  • Posts: 15867
  • Karma: +57/-23
  • #1 Judge (Retired)
    • Minnesota Outdoorsman
That's true, they are....but average Joe deer hunter is not voiceing his thoughts.
Thats what I meant by the pro APR guys are putting the bug in the DNR's ear while Joe sits and does nothing. The stats are squed, because Joe is not organized as well as the QDM and APR guys are.

But, I knew this was coming years ago, and I believe we had this conversation before.
Mama always said, If you ain't got noth'in nice to say, don't say noth'in at all!

Offline Bear Creek Bucks

  • Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 32
  • Karma: +0/-0
Good conversation...
I like the idea of APRs in MN, but don't like the idea of more regulations, BUT I do believe it is the best thing for Minnesota's deer herd.
The buck to doe ratio is so skewed in some areas, especially up north here, that Exertion Myopathy happens more often than people think, according to Charles Alsheimer...not me. It's when a buck literally runs himself to exhaustion and dies from overexertion. Whatever percentage of 1 1/2 year old bucks do survive with the help of APRs, it's going to help the overall herd.  
 
...I am not the man I hope to be, but by the grace of God, I am not the man I was. John Newton

Offline Mayfly

  • Master Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 5689
  • Karma: +0/-0
    • MNO
That's true, they are....but average Joe deer hunter is not voiceing his thoughts.
Thats what I meant by the pro APR guys are putting the bug in the DNR's ear while Joe sits and does nothing. The stats are squed, because Joe is not organized as well as the QDM and APR guys are.

HD -

Who do you think we are? I work on the Minnesota Whitetail Alliance website and facebook page. I work on those two projects with Ted Wawrzyniak. There is about 10 other guys that get involved in our meetings and help us build support etc...

Do you not think i'm an "average joe" hunter?  We are just a bunch of guys that are motivated. We have no funding. We ran a few ads on facebook and that money came out of our own pockets.

I have made one trip to southeast this fall and met a ton of people. I met a ton of average joe hunters that just LOVE what they are seeing. They'll admit that they didn't know how they felt three years ago and some even opposed APR. Now, after three years they see and are happy. The public interest surveys are sent out randomly and its the voice of the hunters.

If its not average joe hunters voicing their opinions than who is?? Is there a secret society of pro APR hunters that are taking over? I don't get what you are saying. You act like there is some huge money train behind APR.

You should know, if you get a few guys together that are motivated they can do anything. Look at this site (MNO). There is no money in this site, its a bunch of averager guys who put together a website and keep it active, just like the push for APR.

C'mon HD!!  ;D

You should like us on facebook... https://www.facebook.com/pages/Minnesota-Whitetail-Alliance/311125705593404
« Last Edit: November 11/28/12, 02:16:04 PM by MNO »

Offline HD

  • Administrator
  • Master Outdoorsman
  • *
  • Posts: 15867
  • Karma: +57/-23
  • #1 Judge (Retired)
    • Minnesota Outdoorsman
Ok...here it is in simplified terms....

In my eyes, average Joe deer hunter is a guy (or gal) that goes out deer hunting, shoots a deer, and is happy with whatever he / she got. He does not put in the time to scout, trail cams, food plots etc. He just goes and enjoys his form of deer hunting. I know there are hundereds of deer hunters that fall in this catagory. And, He or she, are not a member of QDM, or are not a member of MDHA. Just an average person that loves the sport.

Do I think you are average? Nope, I don't...you put in the time to get what you want.

Who do I think are the APR guys? Well, you said it yourself, a organized group of guys pushing for what they want.

And no, I don't feel that there is this endless train of money that is driving this. (and that's not the point) But, I'm pretty sure that some of the dues that QDM members are paying is helping to get their point across in the legislator. (another group of motivated guys)

And folks like whitetail alliance (another group of motivated guys) are using media to help get thie point across.

A while back I posted about QDM and what was coming in the form of APR, and almost got my head chopped off by some not so happy members. That's why this subject intregues (sp) me. All because I was trying to open the eyes of other fellow deer hunters.

Now, the question about the surveys...they were sent out randomly...
If, each and every deer hunter HAD to fill out a survey before he / she would be able to be issued a license....do you think the answer would still be overwelming pro APR?

Like I said before, I'm not either for APR, or against it....
I'm just keeping the conversation going..  ;D






« Last Edit: November 11/28/12, 04:06:08 PM by HD »
Mama always said, If you ain't got noth'in nice to say, don't say noth'in at all!

Offline mathews4ever

  • Xtreme Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 254
  • Karma: +0/-0
It is pretty simple to describe the average joe hunter. He or she is the type of person that goes to hunting camp, sits around the fire and is happy with whatever deer they get or any other member of their party gets. They are there for the experience and some tasty venison. They sure aren't the guys that are grouping together, lighting their torches, sharpening their pitch forks and trying to take away the right of others to enjoy themselves. Oh, I'm sorry,  I guess we can enjoy ourselves as long as we do it exactly how the big buck hunters want us too.

Plus, unless I missed it, I have yet to see anybody post up a legitimate report of a study done on this subject to backup the claims of its followers. I am talking about a real study that tracks a herd for a minimum of 10 years and confirms that the herd is healthier than when the project started. I want to see how it effects fawn birthing rates and fawn mortality, how it effects the health of the does in the herd and how it effects the health and mortality rates of male deer within the herd.  The fact that there are larger bucks surely doesn't mean the entire herd is healthier or even that the bucks in that herd are healthier. All it means is that those specific bucks where not killed.
"when a hunter is in a tree stand with high moral values and proper hunting ethics and richer for the experience, that hunter is twenty feet closer to god." -Fred Bear-

Offline flowinggardens

  • Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 30
  • Karma: +0/-0
Mathews 4ever,
       I did say we let every DOE and small buck walk, we choose to let the bucks get bigger by us and all the hunters in the area are telling us they can see the difference.  Have you ever let a deer walk by to get bigger or increase herd size in your area, are main goal was to increase our herd size, not trophy hunt. It just happened to help out the entire herd, it is just my opinion that it would help even the playing field a little bit, like you said APR doesnt protect ALLl deer. I also think that it could protect deer that shouldnt be protected, = the big 6 pt that cant be shot and that us trophy hunters want taken out. I think there are alot of issues to be figured out on the issue.  Maybe like, I think I read, a Buck tag lottery for smaller bucks if thats appelling to some. I hunt in an area that has no limit on the amount of does you can shoot and I DIDNT get a voice on that one.

Offline mathews4ever

  • Xtreme Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 254
  • Karma: +0/-0
Of course there is unlimited doe tags in the metro area. Nobody got a say in that regulation except the car insurance companies that lobbied for it to keep car/deer accidents down.
"when a hunter is in a tree stand with high moral values and proper hunting ethics and richer for the experience, that hunter is twenty feet closer to god." -Fred Bear-

Offline flowinggardens

  • Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 30
  • Karma: +0/-0
Now I am just lobbying for more deer in my area, they dont protect the does so I am hoping they protect the bucks. I have to deal with all the hunters that go to there up north hunting spot and then if they didnt kill theyre deer they come home and kill the first thing that moves.  I like Apr for my selfish reasons just like those that dont want APR oppose it  for theres.

Offline FireRanger

  • Master Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 573
  • Karma: +0/-0
Where I am from there was ALWAYS a lottery for does. Never knew of anything else. Then again, they were trying to increase the population. We had no problem shooting bucks reardless of age class since we would mainly party hunt for the freezer. How ever there would always be 1 or 2 big brutes shot every year by the guys who put the time in and wanted the oppurtunity to shoot a large pointed buck. This was always big timber hunting, no fields, no plots nothing but maybe the odd clear cut from a timber company. Its been 10 years now since I hunted back home and from what I hear from my buddies back home there are deer everywhere. The herd is healthy and growing and for those whom wish to pursue a big one, well the oppurtunity is there. Coming from that experience and hunting where I hunt now, I'm glad that I am allowed to choose what I can shoot. For me personally I am not a fan of APR. At this point in my life I am a freezer hunter whom has one weekend outta the year to bag a deer which consists of 2 full days. Thats it. Maybe later in life I may appreciate the APR idea, when I have time and money to spend on trying to acquire a nice rack instead of just trying to feed the mouths at home. So, if you want more deer around you, have a doe lottery, simple numbers logic. You want bigger bucks, institute APR. You want to upset a whole lot of people, regulate the sport even more. With all the variables involved in this question, it is impossible to find a common ground wbetween each hunter, the area they hunt and the personal attitude about what they are trying to accomplish. I think I'm up to 4 cents now...




Going South......in a manner of speaking!

Offline Cody Gruchow

  • Master Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 4060
  • Karma: +3/-0
  • 2016 Mno rockbass challenge champion
theres great arguements for both sides. But as pointed out, how does APR help the overall deer herd? it protects 1.5-2.5 year old bucks, and geneticly inferior bucks. doe numbers will go down drastically because thats what the main target becomes(unless a buck following the APR guide lines comes along) what are the people to do in the doe lottery areas? especially if they dont have the land/resrources to grow bigger deer...when all they want to do is shoot there deer. So they would be SOL. after awhile people would just quit deer hunting...that isnt the objective is it? seems to be quite the opposite actually, you should want more people hunting. i have a hard time believing that out of half a million gun hunters that most of them want APR, because i dont think that is true.

Offline deadeye

  • MNO Moderator
  • Master Outdoorsman
  • *
  • Posts: 6220
  • Karma: +19/-13
Someone ask for a ligitmate report documenting the long term effect using APR to manage a deer herd.  Here in one from Pennsylvania.  They started APR in 2002.


Antlers! Nothing captures the attention of a deer hunter more. Antlered bucks star in the dreams of many a hunter on the night before deer season. However, for years, most Pennsylvania deer hunters could only dream of harvesting a large antlered buck. Typically, bucks taken by hunters only had a chance to grow one set of antlers. Few had the larger antlers of an adult buck. One way to change this situation was implementation of antler restrictions. In 2002, the Pennsylvania Game Commission changed the antler restriction to harvest an antlered deer. Prior to 2002, the antler restriction was 2 points to an antler or a spike at least 3 inches in length. From 2002 to 2010, the antler point
restrictions (APR) were 3 or 4 points-to-an-antler
depending on area of the state. Starting in 2011,
the 4-point area changed to 3 points to an antler,
not including the brow tine. The 3 points-to-an –
antler area did not change. Since APRs began a
swirling of myth and reality has followed. Here
are the facts about Pennsylvania’s antler point restrictions.
The primary goal of APRs was to increase the
number of adult bucks (2.5 years of age or older)
in the population. By doing so, benefits of a more natural breeding ecology, an older buck age structure, and
greater hunter satisfaction might be realized. To achieve this goal, APRs needed to protect most yearling bucks
(1.5 years of age) from harvest. This required two different APRs: a 4-points-to-an-antler restriction in western
Pennsylvania and a 3-points-to-an-antler over the rest of the state (excluding junior hunters).
To assess biological and social aspects of APRs, the Game Commission initiated a multi-year study with the
U.S. Geological Survey’s Pennsylvania Cooperative Fish and Wildlife Research Unit at Penn State. This study
included the capture of more than 2,000 white-tailed deer and the surveying of more than 8,000 hunters. Additional information came from the Game Commission’s annual collection of deer harvest data.

BIOLOGY: Why Antler Points?
When defining antler restrictions, antler points and spread can be used.
Although hunters can judge both criteria in the field, we chose antler points.
APRs can be defined by any number of points; however, spread restrictions
are usually judged on the distance between ear tips. In many areas of
Pennsylvania, a spread restriction of 15” (a common ear tip width estimate)
would have protected nearly all yearling bucks as well as most adult bucks.
Although this level of protection would attain our goal, it would also make
many adult bucks ineligible for harvest. Antler points were chosen to protect
most yearling bucks and allow most adult bucks to be harvested.
Antler Restrictions in Pennsylvania Are they working?

BIOLOGY: Buck Survival
Prior to APRs about 80 percent of bucks (a majority of
which were yearlings) were harvested by hunters each
year. This led to buck survival rates of less than 20
percent. Protecting most yearling bucks would increase
buck survival thereby increasing adult bucks in the
population, the goal of APRs.
Based on survival rates of hundreds of radio-collared
bucks, yearling buck survival increased from less than
20 percent to 64 percent after APRs. Adult buck
survival increased as well to 36 percent.

BIOLOGY: Breeding Changes
With 80 percent of bucks being harvested each year prior to APRs, most bucks survived through only one
breeding season. Few older bucks were present in the population. Could APRs change the breeding ecology in
Pennsylvania’s deer herd?
Although yearling bucks are capable breeders, the dominance-based breeding hierarchy to which white-tailed
deer were thought to conform was absent in Pennsylvania due to the high buck harvest rate. This low number
of older bucks and “unstructured” breeding could have extended the breeding season. Would APRs and more
adult bucks lead to changes in breeding behavior, in particular conception dates?
From 2000 to 2007, data on breeding dates
from more than 2,500 females were
collected. Average date of conception prior
to APRs was November 17. Following
APRs, average date of conception was November 16.
In Pennsylvania, most adult does are bred in
mid-November and sexually mature female
fawns tend to peak about two weeks later.
Other aspects of breeding ecology, such as
pregnancy rates and embryo counts, have
also remained at stable and healthy levels.
Based on these data, it does not appear APRs significantly changed timing of breeding in Pennsylvania

BIOLOGY: Genetic Impacts
Concerns over genetic impacts of selective harvest are common. Would selecting bucks based on the number of
antler points they carried be enough to alter future antler development? Current research is clearly mounting
evidence to the contrary.
About 1 in 4 litters will have fawns with different fathers.
Research has shown yearling antler points are poor
predictors of future antler points and size.
Percent of hunters harvesting a buck is similar to previous decades.
First, yearling antler points are poor predictors of future antler
development. Research indicates little relationship between a buck’s
first set of antlers and those he carries at 4.5 years of age and older.
So, using yearling antler points as a harvest criterion should not
influence future antler development in the population as a yearling
spike buck and a yearling 6-point can have similar sized antlers by
age 4.5 years. Second, most of Pennsylvania’s antlered males are harvested after the breeding season. About 75 percent of Pennsylvania’s antlered deer
harvest occurs during the firearms season in late November and early
December. The peak of breeding is mid-November. As a result, most
antlered males harvested in Pennsylvania have already passed their
genes onto future generations. Third, a few mature males are not dominating breeding. In two different studies, yearling males successfully
sired fawns in populations with high percentages of older males. In fact, most males, regardless of age, only sired one litter.
Fourth, does are regularly being bred by multiple bucks.
Initially studied in captive deer, multiple paternity has
been documented in every free-ranging white-tailed deer
study in which researchers have looked. Populations
with different male age structures in different states have
seen litters with two or more offspring having different
fathers at rates of 20-24 percent.
Finally, a buck’s mother contributes half of his genetic
characteristics, but nobody can tell what a doe’s
contribution to her son’s antlers will be. There is no way
to visually evaluate the genetic antler potential of a doe.
As a result, 50 percent of the genetic contribution to
future antler development is randomly selected in Pennsylvania.
Given the complexity of the white-tailed deer’s breeding
ecology and high genetic variation, large-scale
alteration to Pennsylvania’s deer herd genetics is unlikely.

HUNTING: Hunter Success Rates
Increasing the standard for the harvest of a legal
buck with APRs could have reduced the number
of hunters that were successful. Tracking hunter
success rates over the last 3 decades has shown
little change in the percentage of successful
hunters. Today, licensed Pennsylvania hunters
are as successful harvesting a buck under APRs
as their predecessors were 20 years ago under
the old antler restriction.

HUNTING: Age Structure of Antlered Harvest
Age structure of the antlered harvest before APRs was about 80 percent yearling bucks and 20 percent adult
bucks. With the increase in survival of yearling bucks under APRs, the age structure of the antlered harvest
changed to about 55 percent yearling bucks and 45 percent adult bucks. This increase in adult buck harvest has
occurred during a time when overall deer populations have declined.
The increased harvest of adult bucks does not necessarily mean more “record book” bucks. Although age structure and number of adult bucks in the harvest has increased, about 75 percent of them are only 2.5 yearsof-
age. In other words, most of Pennsylvania’s bucks are still being harvested prior to growing their largest antlers.

HUNTING: Hunter Support
Prior to changing to APRs, surveys showed a
majority of hunters favored them. Many hunter
surveys have been conducted since APRs
started in 2002. Would hunter support wane
after APRs became reality? Not hardly! In
fact, hunter support of APRs has remained
steady since their implementation

CONCLUSION
After 6 years, APRs are a success. They have increased buck survival and the buck age structure. They have maintained strong support from hunters. And Pennsylvania hunters are experiencing the same levels of success
to which they are accustomed.


***I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it.***

Offline Bear Creek Bucks

  • Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 32
  • Karma: +0/-0
After the facts are in how can we be against it? Bring on APRs! It's better for the herd, that many yearling bucks being shot every year can't be good. It makes sense if we remove what each hunter wants and look at a natural population.
MN DNR has always seemed to manage for numbers to make all hunters happy and make sure they're getting as many tags bought as possible. I can remember when I was younger and didn't get a doe tag, I could hunt all year and not see one buck, not even a spiker to fill my tag. It's different now. Certain areas in MN that have higher numbers of deer could definitely have a trial run of APRs. Other areas with low numbers of deer could stay as is.
...I am not the man I hope to be, but by the grace of God, I am not the man I was. John Newton

Offline Dstark5625

  • Xtreme Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 122
  • Karma: +0/-0
I have to totally agree with FireRanger on this.  His situation sounds very similar to mine.  I party hunt in big woods and only get a limited number of days to make it out each year.  A majority of our deer are usually young but we also get mature does and nice bucks.  Over the years a handful of wall hangers have been taken, some by luck and some because the hunter put the time in to find them.  I believe the mature bucks are out there, they just get smarter and harder to come across.  Where we hunt there are miles and miles of swamp which seem to be where they like to live. I don't doubt that APR would be beneficial but we are meat hunters and antler doesn't taste very good.  And again, for the guys that want to put the time in and try to get that big one, they are there to be found.  I understand the arguments for APR and maybe it does have its place in certain parts of the state.  I don't see it ever being made a state wide law

Offline beeker

  • Master Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 1933
  • Karma: +0/-0
then the only solution would be to find a happy middle ground. the DNR could create an incentive system where if you don't fill your buck tag, the following year your tag is half price and the year after that.. then after 3 years you have to buy a new one and start over. this would give a reason to let the little bucks walk unless you need one for the freezer. and it would be up to the hunter who wants to wait for the big boy... when I used to cross the boarder into wisconsin I would always fill my tag because of the expense.
if there was an incentive to hold your shot save some cash... some guys would take it and that would lead to a higher pecentage of deer getting passed on.

or when you buy your tag you pay a little less.. with the expectation that your buying an APR tag which would mean your going to pass on deer for one that fits the measure and there is a good chance your tag will go unfilled.

just a few ideas to find a happy middle ground
If science fiction has taught me anything, it's that you can never have enough guns and ammo when the zombies come back to life... "WS"

Offline Bear Creek Bucks

  • Outdoorsman
  • Posts: 32
  • Karma: +0/-0
I always like it when a hunter tells me "You can't eat the antlers." But when he has a choice between a young buck and a doe or two the hunter shoots the young buck...
...I am not the man I hope to be, but by the grace of God, I am not the man I was. John Newton