Hunt Test Question

[The General]

After reading the last post I decided to look into Those Hut test for my GSP.  He has some Master Hunters in his bloodlines and some other stuff.  The Junior one my dog could pass in his sleep.  But here's my question.  At the upper level I believe if I read this right: 1 your dog goes on point, 2) you kick it up, 3) your dog has to stay put until you shoot the bird down.  If that is true IMO this is BS.  I would never want to train my dog to do that.  I want him after the bird the instant it gets up.  To many times I and others have just winged a Pheasant and when it hits the ground the sooner the dog is there the better the chances of getting it.  The only negative that I can see is if it's a low flying bird you might not get a shot for fear of shooting the dog, but oh well so one gets away.  It doesn't happen very much.  I also bet that more would be shot that run away because your dog was on mark waiting for you to shoot it.

[Cody Gruchow]

i know my dog wont stay by my side if a bird gets up, he is most likey hot on its tail. but my dog is a flusher. i know what you mean about cripling them, ive seen them hit the ground and just take off running without missing a beat, and if the dog isnt hot on its tail when it hits the ground your chances of a lost injuryed bird shoot up drastically. At the Game farm we have all hunters wait until the bird is atleast 7 feet off the ground or if you can see the horizan under it to shoot, just to be cautious so the dogs dont get hit. some complain about it but i tell them would you rather pay for the expensive dog or shoot a pheasant that we can have a second chance at anyways.

[Mayfly]

Those field trial dogs are just that. They are the show dogs of the hunting world. A good hunting dog would blow the best field trial dog out of the water. It is a different game out there in the wild. I think the best dog is a dog that hunts the way you want it to hunt. My dog and I hunt well together and she does things the way I want her to do it not the way a book tell us how it should be done. I'm probably opening a can of worms here.....

[Cody Gruchow]

I agree with you tim, but i cant help but wonder how my dog would do, so next year i think ill try him out at a couple of these trials. i like fast paced hunting and sometimes a little slower, but the dog has so much energy he goes nuts, but we hunt great. have to go pheasant hunting with you sometime and show you lol

[thunderpout]

For pointing dogs, they must remain steady to point, which is why I never had any visions of entering my setters in any trials.  But to each his own... I want my dogs to adjust on birds, depending on the situation, like running pheasents, and on another note, feild trial dogs are usually wide ranging ground covering dogs, and the type of hunting that I do, I like my dog to hunt fairly close, not running to his point for a few minutes hoping the bird will still be there holding on his point.  I know what your sayin Tim, Its not that your way, or the trial way is right or wrong, its just people train for what they will be using the dog for.  Trial people use a whistle alot also, where I use hand signals and I want my dog to check in with me every now and then for direction, with out blowin on a whistle all day long...

[blabman]

Those field trial dogs are just that. They are the show dogs of the hunting world. A good hunting dog would blow the best field trial dog out of the water. It is a different game out there in the wild. I think the best dog is a dog that hunts the way you want it to hunt. My dog and I hunt well together and she does things the way I want her to do it not the way a book tell us how it should be done. I'm probably opening a can of worms here.....

Now this is the most riduclus statement I have heard.

A good hunting dog is probably hunted over a handful of times a year ,and the owner probably trains the dog 2 weeks before the season starts. ANY field trial dog would blow a good hunting dog away.
Lets see.
A field trial dog is trained 7 days a week 365 days a year. Sometimes multiple times a day.
Usually by a professional trainer.
Is steady to shot. I don't know about you but when I go duck hunting I don't like my dog breaking on  shot like a ordinary hunting dog would do.
Will pick up any bird, any where. The average hunting dog will bring you back a duck as far as you can throw a rock.
A field trial dog can mark and remember multiple birds down. The birds it can't see can be handled to using hand signals and whistle commands.

A field trial dog can hunt thier butts off. Thats what they are trained to do.

To make it to the field trial level which about 2% of the dogs are capable of doing is an enormous achievement taking thousands of hours of training and problem solving.
And to suggest a good hunting dog is better is a joke.

[thunderpout]

Hey Blabman, are you saying that a trialing pointing dog would do better hunting in thick stuff, grouse hunting than a well trained grouse hunting dog would?  To be fair, I would say that a dog trained for hunting a specific bird, not just a handful of times, but through the whole year frequently, will do at least as well as taking a trialing pointing dog trained for the same amount of days by whomever... of course any dog trained to do anything "twice a day, 365 days a year" will out perform a dog trained a handfull of days a year... Not a good comparison.... Now if you mean takin a garden variety hunting/family dog into a trial, yeah the well trained trial dog will run circles around him... Ive seen some pointing/versitile trials, not all trial dogs are great, Ive seen some awesome dogs and Ive seen alot of really mediocre ones, that I guarantee were not trained twice a day, or every day of the year, that my self trained bird dogs would do some things alot better than when hunting in stuff/conditions that I do.  I think Tim was saying a dog trained to hunt the way a person hunts will do better than if he hunted with a trial dog with basically the same amount of trial training, and I dont think thats wrong or ridiculous.  I for one have never heard of a dog being trained twice a day for 365 days a year, and how does one pay a pro to do that for that much time, and then, is it really your dog anymore... and when do ya hunt?  Yeah ya did open a can of worms Tim, but thats ok...

[blabman]

I know of many field trial dogs that have washed out, or in other words are not good enough for the field trial game that have sold for 10 times what a good hunting dog would sell for.
These are bought for the purpose of hunting dogs or guide dogs by people who want the best trained dogs available.
To say a good hunting dog would blow away a field trial dog is nonsense.
I would take the field trial wash out any day.

[Spinach]

Are we talking hard wild hunts or trial type challenges?

I'll take a well trained/conditioned good hunting dog over a trial dog on Pheasant opener any day.

[blabman]

99 out out of 100 field trial dogs would make a good hunting dog.
1 out of 100 hunting dogs would make a good field trial dog.

[Mayfly]

99 out out of 100 field trial dogs would make a good hunting dog.
1 out of 100 hunting dogs would make a good field trial dog.

My dog is a great bird dog and no she would not make a good field trial dog. If you trained her she would but not as is.

How about if you flip it...

99 out of 100 GOOD hunting dogs would out-hunt 1 out of 100 field trial dogs.

 

Meaning that what you said makes no sense.

[The General]

Blabman, I can tell you just by reading the rules/qualifications my dog would be a master hunter in the pionting dog trials except for staying put once the bird flushes.  But I think it is stupid for the dog to sit and wait for me to shoot the bird first (just my opinion now).  I never talked about shooting some stupid duck in any of my posts.  I shoot 50 ducks a year with no dog so if a dog stays or goes I could care less.  I'm talking abot upland hunting.  It just really make me wonder who makes these rules and if they really hunt the species they are making the rules for.  I just won a dog trail a few months ago but it was 4 birds, 30 minutes, no questions and who could get the most birds in the least amount of time.  Not only that but I was the only entry with a pionting breed.  Every other entry was a lab.  So that made it all the better.

[Cody Gruchow]

a 7 year old black lab that i hunt with at work could blow any trial dog out of the water if it came to marking retreiving and yes he even brings it past a tossed rock distance sits on your left and presents you the bird. i have seen this dog make some truely great retreives, more than 100 yards away. if any want to test this talk to me come pheasant opener ill bring him out and hunt him with you. and as for a dog in the duck blind, im sure lots of upland dogs wouldnt do well there, the only thing in common is BOOM! bring it back. and i dont know about everyone else but i work with my dog everyday, it doesnt have to always be training, ever heard of just playing fetch with your dog, gee i know mine absolutely loves to play fetch, would do it all day if i would let him. who here starts to train there dogs 2 weeks before the season?

[thunderpout]

If ya did, they'd only last an hour in the feild, then probably die... iI wouldnt call that a hunting dog.  I had a field trial champ line setter from Burnt creek kennels from Jet Train, a pretty famous dog, I thought it was the type of dog I wanted, the hard running wide ranging smaller setter.  Boy was I wrong... Mojo was a nice dog, but he was hard to grt to hunt close, tended to hunt for himself, took an hour of running around before he'd really use his nose and cover everthing and not just cover ground going full tilt...and when he'd get on a grouse when in that mode, he'd get something like vertigo and wig out and go out of control, you needed track shoes to hunt with him.  not my style of hunting, but I guess some people want that I guess..but not me.  I'll never go the field trial type dog again.

[Joe]

I have to agree with thunderout. I've been to a few trials, in fact I ran my English Setter in one a couple years ago, and I didn't like the way the trials were run. All the dogs that did well got way out there. It seemed the farther the better. I'm a foot hunter. I want my dog hunting much closer than that, especially in the grouse woods. She does tend to get out there, but I don't find it too hard to reel her back in.
I don't think going full tilt and hunting for themselves is necessarily a "trial dog" problem. My setter is the same way for the first 30 minutes or so. She's just running off those kennel legs. I've got a couple spots near my favorite hunting areas that I like to stop and let her burn off some steam for 20 or 30 minutes before heading into the woods.
As far as which dog is better to hunt with, I really don't know, but I do know I don't want my dog trained to hunt like a field trial dog. 

[thunderpout]

Yeah, Joe... I know what your sayin, all my dogs have done the blowin off steam when ya let em out of the box, but this guy was like a long range jet... only dog I ever had that had issues figuring out the check cord/e-collar stuff... was allways amped up & didn't cool his jets till he got old, he was an ok pheasent dog but grouse hunting with him wasnt as ejoyable as it should be... Im back to the older style, hemlock/ryman setter again, more of a foot hunting strain like you said, and hunting is a lot more fun now...

[blabman]

a 7 year old black lab that i hunt with at work could blow any trial dog out of the water if it came to marking retreiving and yes he even brings it past a tossed rock distance sits on your left and presents you the bird. i have seen this dog make some truely great retreives, more than 100 yards away. if any want to test this talk to me come pheasant opener ill bring him out and hunt him with you.


A 100 yard retieve is something any Junior HT dog can do.

Go to www.entryexpess.net and enter your lab in a field trial.
Lets see what your dog can do.

Can your dog mark 4 birds down at distances of 350 yards? Can your dog run 400 yard blind retrieves?

Enter your seven year old lab and lets see him blow away the field.

[blabman]

Blabman, I can tell you just by reading the rules/qualifications my dog would be a master hunter in the pionting dog trials except for staying put once the bird flushes.  But I think it is stupid for the dog to sit and wait for me to shoot the bird first (just my opinion now).  I never talked about shooting some stupid duck in any of my posts.  I shoot 50 ducks a year with no dog so if a dog stays or goes I could care less.  I'm talking abot upland hunting.  It just really make me wonder who makes these rules and if they really hunt the species they are making the rules for.  I just won a dog trail a few months ago but it was 4 birds, 30 minutes, no questions and who could get the most birds in the least amount of time.  Not only that but I was the only entry with a pionting breed.  Every other entry was a lab.  So that made it all the better.

To answer your question:
The judges want to see that you have complete control of your dog.
A dog that breaks, is not at dog that is under control.

[The General]

Blabman I see what you're saying but I want my dog to be after that pheasant ASAP for the reasons I posted before.  Every Hunter I know wants the same thing.  So I ask again who comes up with these rules for these tests.  Maybe a better question is are there tests that someone who actually hunts makes up the rules.  Rules like can you keep your dog within 40 yards of yah while hunting (Might have a realy good hunting dog but if they don't chase birds up close enough for you to shoot what good are they?).  Maybe have one pheasant in one of those launchers alive with wings clipped.  Dog goes on point, launcher throws bird up in the air, you shoot a blank, and see how long it takes that dog to get that bird or if the running pheasant gets away.  These are just a coouple of ideas things that a good hunting dog I believe should be good at.  Especially the staying close enough to shoot without constantly telling your dag to get closer and alerting everything in a 5 mile radius even though they probably already know your there.  Pointers aren't so bad if they get out a little far at least they point. 

[blabman]

1. A dog that chases is a dog in danger of being hit by fire.
2. A dog that chases has the potential to kick up other game.
Example: I have seen this many times. A untrained dog chases a hen pheasant only to kick up roosters out of range. A dog that is steady will not do this.

[The General]

I do see the danger of being hit by fire I did say that's the only negative I can see.  But so 2-3 low flying birds get away all year big deal.  Birds I see get away usually are running before they hit the ground.  The second one about a dog chasing after a hen, I have my dog trained so when a hen gets up all I have to do is say Blaze and he stops.  But I want him after Birds not holding steady after the bird gets up.

[blabman]

Sounds like you have a nice dog.
But for me, a dog that is not steady is a dog that is out of control, and a dog that is out of control is a dog that will cost me oppurtunities to shoot.
I want to shoot.

[Spinach]

Once again, this comment makes no sense to me.

Example: I have seen this many times. A untrained dog chases a hen pheasant only to kick up roosters out of range. A dog that is steady will not do this.

First off, who here is talking about an untrained dog? Secondly, lets put this last comment into perspective.....

Lets say i have the worse dog in the world, if she goes on point and the bird flushes, i take the shot and the dog takes off towards the bird, why would this be any different than if the same dog was holding steady and waiting for me to release her to retrieve the same bird. Both dogs are running the same path to the downed bird, if any roosters are between me and the dead bird, they will flush anyways. Steady dog or stupid untrained dog will not make a difference if the roosters are spooky.

Why would a steady dog be any different in this scenario?

Lets turn that comment around now.  

Lets say my hunting dog takes off for the bird when i take the shot, she is heading for the retrieve and finds a rooster along the way, she goes on point and holds the bird until i catch up. I shoot the second bird and the dog retrieves both birds back to back. I'm sitting there with my limit allready and the field trial dog is still holding steady because the owner wants a textbook hunt.

Of course this is all irrelevant, noone here is discussing an untrained dog.

Is an untrained dog a dog that has not competed in field trials? Just wondering?

[thunderpout]

I guess where I have a problem with this discusion is where Blabman refered to a good hunting dog is one that gets out a handful of times and two weeks before hunting.... Thats a good hunting dog eh?  For once, I really dont know what to say to someone who says something like that....except Hmmmm..........yeah, ok.

[thunderpout]

I cant remember if ya get docked or ya get points for your dog adjusting/relocating on running birds in a pointing dog trial, (and I mean adjusting and re-pointing) My current setter figured out how to do this really young on pheasents, my past dogs took longer to get it down if they ever did at all.  I can tell ya that at least when hunting pheasents with a pointing breed, I wouldnt want that done any other way.

[The General]

My dog will act like he is on the "stock" on running birds.  I instantly know they are running.  It's awesome to watch. 

[thunderpout]

Yep...It sure is...

[Cody Gruchow]

my dog is a flusher and the other dog i was talking about is a flusher. plus your dog shouldnt have to make 350 yard retreives, that would be a big mistake on your part, obviously you need practice, and you wont have that problem if you dont hold your dog when the bird flushs, that way when i shoot and hit the bird if i cripple it or not, when it hits the ground my dog is on it. who in the feild has ever had to make a 400 yard blind retreive? and about low flying birds just dont shoot i dont know whats more important to you but i can not shoot and mark were the bird lands and then try again. instead of taking a low shot and shooting my dog. and if a hen gets up all i say is no bird and they stop.

[blabman]

Lets say i have the worse dog in the world, if she goes on point and the bird flushes, i take the shot and the dog takes off towards the bird, why would this be any different than if the same dog was holding steady and waiting for me to release her to retrieve the same bird. Both dogs are running the same path to the downed bird, if any roosters are between me and the dead bird, they will flush anyways. Steady dog or stupid untrained dog will not make a difference if the roosters are spooky.

Would it be any different if is the child you are holding in your avatar  that was out chasing the bird that you are about to shoot at? or would you rather have your child steady so you know where he is at?
Alot of times hunters only focus on the bird and not their dog.

I was only trying to answer THE GENERALS question as to why he thinks the rule is stupid.
If he does not like the rules that are put in place. He does not have to run his dog.
To me ,the rule makes a lot of sense.

I know of 2 dogs that have been shot that were chasing birds.

[Spinach]

That answer makes absolutely no sense either, Can you please answer the question without comparing the situation to something that would never happen.

I'm having a very hard time understanding your point of view. Nothing personal though.