Hunt Test Question

[blabman]

The rule says you have to have a steady dog. If he wants to play the game he will have to train for the game. As for why does a dog have to hold steady ,there are many different scenarios where you would want a steady dog.

I run my dog in the retriever master hunt test game and have entered my dog in qualified age stakes of retriever field trials.
There are some rules that I don't like, but they are there for a reason.
If I want to have sucsess I have to train for them, and they do carry over into certain hunting situations.

At every level of the Hunt test and field trial game a steady dog is required.
(Except JH which you can hold on to your dog, but still the dog is not allowed to break)

[The General]

blab, you are def right if i want to play that game i have to follow those rules.  but i still wonder who made the rules.  i think it's someone who just wanted to be a bigshot and didn't think about the rules. 

one thing you said about shooting a bird and a stupid dog going to get it and a steady dog going to get it after you release.  nothing is the answer as long as that bird is dead.  now if it is just winged and will be running when it hit the ground a lot.  your dog will be steady and the bird running as far and as fast as possible.  my dog on the other hand will be close behind and 9 times out of ten will have that bird shortly after it hits the ground.  yours on the other hand will be chasing that bird and scaring up how many birds out of shooting range "if there are any".  You will still be looking for that bird and I will be back hunting.  Being a pheasant hunter dang near every weekend of the season i will guarantee the senario of breaking a wing on a pheasant happens a lot more then a pheasant flying too low and not being able to get a shot.  The only thing I think the master hunter tests for pointing dogs anyway proves is the the trainer was actually able to train his dog.  even though my dog has some of those things in his bloodlines it had nothing to do with me choosing him.  My first question is always "can I see the parents hunt?".

[thunderpout]

One thing I havent heard anyone bring up is that in trials, the birds are pen raised, released birds, thus the birds rarely run as wild birds will...  As far as the part about dogs getting shot, yep... weve all heard of such things... people have been known to get shot also while hunting, and its NOT because they were chasing birds, as with dogs getting hit, It really all comes down to basically one cause.  Its called gun control... knowing where your dogs and the other hunters are!  Shooting low birds is a complete no-no anyways in most circumstances when bird hunting,(at least with the people I hunt with) unless one has full open site for the shot, and usually its straight ahead with no swinging of the barrel... like someone said previously, a few lost birds is pretty meaningless, isnt it, when weighing it against being safe?  Alot of doorknobs shoot birds on the ground too... And as Cody said what if ya hve a flushing breed?  In retrieveing trials, and waterfowl hunting, steady dogs are the deal, but with upland HUNTING, theres a big grey area, of course ya dont want a pointing dog bumping birds, but I and alot of others dont want birds 100 yards away by the time ya get to the dogs point, especially when pheasent hunting.

[blabman]

General

You can hunt your dog any way you want to hunt it, but a Master dog is trained with the ability to do things that a good hunting dog can't do that is what makes it special.

Off the top of my head. Heres how you might be able to apply in hunting situations.

1. Lets say you are approaching a road that you can not tell if a car may or may not be coming.
You would have the ability to hold your dog on flush if a bird did flush across the road.

2. You have a Master dog your friend has a 6 month old pup that he would like to get some retrieves. Your dog can hunt the bird, flush and hold steady while the pup gets experience.

Just a couple thoughts.

[thunderpout]

Blabman...its not that the hunting dog cant do it...its that it hasnt been trained to..... thats a big difference.  Its not that it is unable to, and thats where we're are apart here, because one dog is trained to do something another has not , it by no means makes one a better dog than another, except to the owner.... thats it really... what makes a dog better than another is what a dog has going naturally, out of the box if you will....  you can train a dog to do anything.  Ya ever watch stupid pet tricks on letterman?

[Spinach]

My dog is trained to stop on a dime if i yell "Whoa" she wont move until I give her the release command, in other words, she is "Whoa" trained.

My dog will also hold steady if I command her too, i choose to allow her to break on the bird as soon as I take the shot. A good hunting dog will adjust to the birds, or creep on a moving or running bird, thats one reason that I allow her to not stay steady.

I could go on and on here.

The point i am trying to make is my dog is not a field trial dog, she is a family pet/hunting dog, i trained her myself and used the techniques that suited my style of huting. If you read any training books like Richard Wolters, Dokken or many others, these commands and techniques are used in every training method. Not a single one of these books refers to these basic obedience commands as Field trial only techniques.

Blabman.... It sounds to me that you have a hunting dog that has also been trained for field trials. Obedience is where it all starts.

[blabman]

I agree a hunting dog may be able to be trained to that level and maybe it can't.
Not all dogs are created equal and not all dogs can be trained to same level.

Like I said in a previous post ,of all field trial dogs only about 5% go on the become a Field Champions.

To me training is a passion. I'm trying to get my dog to the highest level I can get her too.

I know she will never be a Field Champion. Those are very rare.
I belong to 2 retriever clubs which I train with 3 nights a week and I have another training group I train with another night. Then I train with remote equipment on the remaining nights.
On weekends we are entered in events.
I'm not saying my dog is better than anyone elses dog. But, I did take offense to the guy who said " a good hunting dog would do circles around a field trial dog"

Yes, I do hunt with my dog in the fall.

By the way the Richard Wolters book is junk!!
Get the Mike Lardy tapes or Fowl Dawgs series from Rick Stawski or get Evan Grahams Smartworks books.

[The General]

I guess for upland hunting they should have one more class above Master hunter for my dog to go after.  I'll call it Actual Hunter.  Rules like I said before.  It stays within a certain yardage, 2 a clipped wing bird in a launcher to simulate a bird shoot but just winged.  One stage for hunting with another dog plus back pointing.  I added that one because I've seen some good dogs hunting when they are by themselves but get another dog in the mix and it's follow the leader play time.  Plus the retrieve to hand.   plus a bird  that you shoot a blank at to see if you can stop your dog from chasing it forever.  Plus maybe some other people hunting in the field who fire a couple of shots to see that your dog doesn't go running over to them.  these are real hunting situations I have ran into and what I would train into my dog.  In all the dogs I have ever had I have never taught it to hunt.

[Joe]

I agree a hunting dog may be able to be trained to that level and maybe it can't.
Not all dogs are created equal and not all dogs can be trained to same level.

Like I said in a previous post ,of all field trial dogs only about 5% go on the become a Field Champions.

Thats another reason I dislike field trials. 95% of the dogs are dumped by trainers like they change underwear. I just enjoy the time spent walking through the woods watching the dog work. I don't care if she's perfect.

[thunderpout]

Blabman, are ya refering to Wolters book "Waterdog"?  Im not really familar with that one, but his book "Gundog" ,his book for pointing breeds, was written in 1960 I believe, 48 years ago.  Though some references and the photos are a bit outdated, It's full of very important methods and info for training bird dogs.  Alot of modern trainers over the years have taken his method and just tweeked things and re-written his stuff. Ive got a bunch of books by different trainers and gun dog is still my favorite... For a person that isnt planning on getting into trialing, isnt planning on throwing hundreds/thousands of $$$ sending their bird dog to get trained, I think its a very good book/formula to train your bird dog by.  I dont see any training books out there that were written 48 years ago, and theres a reason, and its not because its full of "junk"... When he wrote gun dog he was kind of slammed in his field for his new methods and using some psycological motivational tactics.  Years later, those methods are used now in alot of basic obediance training, and have served my bird dogs that Ive had over the years (and trained myself) and others well.  I guess it all depends on what ya want your dog trained for I guess...

[LooseB]

My Dad can beat up your dad! 

[thunderpout]

Can not!

[Cody Gruchow]

my dog can beat up your dog!

[blabman]

See what these people think of the Wolters book.
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?t=23998&highlight=wolters

[thunderpout]

It looked mixed on waterdog, and I have no idea who those people making comments were, but like I said , Im not familar with that book, but I liked how the one lab guy liked Gundog and used it for training his Lab even though the book is for pointing breeds... and I can see it, especially for the early conditioning training, and especially if ya have a pointing lab.  The part I liked most about Gun Dog is the "mapped out" week by week, step by step program that showed ya how to circle back when puppy had issues with parts, even though I didnt really agree with the time table, as all dogs are different and learn at different speeds, and absorb things differently, just like people do.  Another good Wolters book for just good obedience stuff is "Family Dog"... ya mix that one up with a few other decent books, and yer off in the right direction... But then I kinda go with the motto: Its not that hard to train a bird dog, but its reeeaaal easy to screw one up! Dont remember where I heard that, but its very true....

[thunderpout]

No way Cody... Drummer has been trained by Korean street fighters!  He shatters large dog bisquits with his head!

[labs4me]

A lot of ignorance posted here on this thread...

Learn WHY trials test for certain attributes before knocking the fact that they do.

Been on both sides of the trial game.  Hard core and removed from it.  Judged, handled and trained for them for a entire decade... and then burned out on them.  Your best hunting dog will NEVER hold a candle to the best trial dog... EVER and I can guarntee that. 

Not goin to call out individuals here, butttttt...... hunt your dog what ever way you want, trial your dog if you can get them to that level.  If you can't, you don't have a trial dog.  Don't inter-mix the two.  They are two seperate things.  Had a QAA dog that I hunted extensivley and sometimes I required him to be steady to flush, sometimes not.  BUT Always in the duck blind.  And yes he completed 300-400 yard retrieves on cripples and for anyone to say that's not needed is not being honest.     There are many reasons why a steady dog is beneficial, and there are reasons why people justify dogs breaking.  To each there own.

But to come on here and say steadiness is dumb to score and not needed in the hunting world is your opinion based on your style of pheasant hunting... but take that dog down to Georgia nd flush a covey of 10 quail and drop three with a sailing cripple and I'd like to see him mark those birds down while he's chasing the 1st bird hit...

Good Luck!

Ken

p.s. there are hunting trials like the U.S. Pheasant open for those who want to show off their dogs hunting skills...

[Spinach]

It's a fun discussion here none the less.  I'ts kind of cool to read all of the different opinions.

The biggest problem with this thread is we are really discussing 2 seperate subjects and the opinions are based on one or the other.

A lot of what Blabman said does make a lot of sense, some of it also made absolutely no sense to me at all. The only point that i was trying to make is that any field trial dog, just because they have competed in field trials does not mean they are better than a basic good hunting dog. I agree that the best field trial dogs would be much better than the best hunting dogs, both are few and far between though.

Comparing apples to apples would drastically change a few opinions here i believe, but most of these comments were based on the best hunting dog compared to any and all field trial dogs.

Labs has some great information for anyone interested, I have known him for quite a few years and trust his opinions 100%.

Good topic though..... 

[blabman]

The only point that i was trying to make is that any field trial dog, just because they have competed in field trials does not mean they are better than a basic good hunting dog.

Here is where you are ignorant.

[Spinach]

The only point that i was trying to make is that any field trial dog, just because they have competed in field trials does not mean they are better than a basic good hunting dog.

Here is where you are ignorant.

Obviously you are misunderstanding my comment, I was actually agreeing with some of your statements and now your contradicting yourself. I'm sure you are reading my last comment wrong is all.

To call me or anyone ignorant is totally uncalled for though......

I know what i'll do, i'll take my dog down to Horse and Hunt Club as soon as they hold an open trial and that will classify her (my dog) as a field trial dog, then she will be classified as a "trained" dog.

My point is that anyone can attend a field trial, but only a very small handful belong there. Therefore, I will say this again in laymans terms......

The best field trial dog would make a better hunting dog, no matter how good that hunting dog is. Or I could say, the best field trial dog is gonna be better than the best hunting dog. I do agree with that!!!

[The General]

Ken, I can see when you bust more birds then one why it could be a good to have your dog steady for some.  But I would still want my dog on them as fast as possible.  When he brings back the first one I line him up and put my hand in front of his face and say "fetch" and he goes for the second.  No problems their.  IMO the only bennefit would be the not shooting your dog.  I guess I'm more concerned with losing cripples then holding steady.

[blabman]

Pat Turnquist,
Please tell me where I make "No sense at all".

First of all. You disagreed with me that a dog running away from you, will flush birds away from you.
Your stance is that it a dog running away from you will flush an equal number of birds back to you.
Now to me .You make no sense here at all. In fact a bird will always flush away from a dog , not towards a dog. Therefore you are making for a further shot, or no shot at all.
Now sometimes there are exceptions to the rule such as a driving wind or a tree line that will make a bird flush in another direction.
If you want to test it out go into your yard and walk up to a bird and see if it gets up and flies towards you, or away from you.

Secondly, I was stating why not having a steady dog may be a safety issue. I asked you to think about putting your kid in the same spot that you do your dog.
Your response was "that makes no sense at all"
Now think about it. You are ok to put your dog into danger where you would never put your kid into danger.
You make no sense to me at all!!
Many dogs get shot every year.


Not any dog can enter into any field trial. Many field trials you have to have a qualified all age dog to enter into the event.
There are very few dogs that are at field trials that do not belong there. Someone would just be throwing money away entering uncapable dogs.
In fact most of the dogs entering an open field trial have the ability to win it. It is just who is the best on any given day.

[Spinach]

All I can say is "no comment" I'm done wasting my time with this one sided argument. If you were to understand my comments and not be looking for an argument, we may have gotten somewhere. Your quotes from me were mostly false and taken out of context, if your going to qoute someone, please quote the entire message and not just a few words. I did a little research on someone named Blabman on a retriever training site, it's so funny because this person is known as an argumentetive know it all over there. I read a post that said none of the proffessionals will work with this Blabman, because he knows everything and wants to argue every situation.

I have no time for people like this, discussing something is one thing, but arguing and wrongfully quoting someone is a waste of my time.

Maybe there is a different blabman on that site and this is not you, but your the one who keeps posting the link.

The funniest part of this whole thing is how you misquote me and continue to argue after I have agreed with you for the most part.

I would also suggest that you re-read your last post, you made some good points and I also believe you are way off on others. You can decide which ones I disagree with because I have no more time for this.

Start comparing real hunting situations instead of kids, backyard birds and other garbage. Does it really matter what the robins in my backyard will do or if my kid goes on point and doesn't hold steady?? The last time I checked, we were talkng mainly about Pheasant hunting.

1."A bird will always flush away from a dog"

What world do you live in?

2. I never said my dog runs away from me and flushes birds wild, I did say that there is no difference to a dog holding steady and then running to retrieve a bird than it is to a dog not holding steady and going for the retrieve...... Either way, the Pheasant will flush if it feels like it should. Do you honestly think that a Pheasant will ask himself "hey, that dog was holding steady, so i will not fly away? But if he didn't hold steady, i'm out of here."

[repoman]

sounds like some people here really live up to there name 

i know i do 

[labs4me]

Plain and simple guys it's like this.... trialing a dog is not 'huniting' a dog.  It's a kin to racing a horse is not riding a horse!  They are two seperate matters and should not be viewed with the same abjectivity that a dog is as good as a trial dog, EXCEPT....

As I posted before you do not have a dog as good as a trial dog if only they took out this one requirement... it is there for a reason and the reasons may be many.  You have a dog good enough to be a trial dog if they can complete each requirement.  You may have a bang-up hunting dog and that is good enough for almost everyone of us... for that is why we have our dogs!

There are some rules and matters that take place within the realm of a trial which many hunters may never engage their dogs to do.  Steadying may be one of them.  Sometimes those things are put in a trial to not only say that is the 'excepted' way for a finished odg to hunt, but also to show the judges that indeed your dog is completely finished and is always under your control. 

Does steadying a dog have it's place in the hunting world?  I'd say yes.  Do I always make my dogs steady to flush? no.  But as stated above, I always do in the duck blind.  Reasons for steadiness?  As stated in my post above, better able to mark multiple birds down.  Using the argument "that you want your dog on a cripple as fast as possible" against you, what are you going to do when your dog breaks on the first of two roosters that flush, you stone cold kill it and the other you snap a wing and it sails 100 yards before going down.  Wouldn't it be nice to "no" your steadied dog off the 1st bird (dead) and send him to the second (cripple) bird down to complete that retrieve ahead of a bird that you know is going nowhere?  Hard to do when he is tearing up sod going towards a stone cold dead bird and may not even have a clue that a second bird has been hit.  And if your comeback is we'll just go over and hunt cold for the cripple, isn't that counter to the argument you want him on a cripple as fast as possible?  Also proper manners means dogs are steady especially when hunting in a brace of dogs.  Only one dog is released to complete the retrieve.  I'm sure many here have witnessed the 'mob' of dogs decending on a downed bird only for it to take 5 minutes for one to come up with it, and at times they never come up with it!  I believe the 'competiton' factor in a dog takes over it's thought process for it to complete a retrieve when multiple dogs try and complete a retrieve.  Plus it muddys up the scent column with multiple dogs and hunters mucking around the area of the fall.  Dogs do mark better when they are staionary, period.  They also are better able to complete multiple retrieves when sent from the same point of origin as to where they marked the fall.  When they are steady they can put the picture in their mind as to the location each bird down and finish the retrieve as they are sent on each one.  In a duck hunting scenario they are also held steady in the blind until any and all crips are shot and a determination of which bird needs to be fetched first based on distance, wind drift, length, crippled  etc...and so on.  Plus there is nothing worse than a dog breaking on the first shot rocking the boat and knocking the legs out from under a hunter.  Safety definitley comes into play here.  Finally, there is nothing prettier than a steady dog.  I have gotten many compliments on my dogs if I keep them under control and steady when working on pheasants.  People are amazed that dogs can become so refined. 

Again, I am not a fanatic on steadying.  My dogs are taught to be steady and will sit to flush and I use it as I deem nessacary.  Many times it's just as easy to let them get on a bird and complete the retrieve.  whatever way suits you is fine with the hunting world... just not the trial world.  I tried to give some insight as to the 'why' of steadying and I hope it opened the minds of those who feel it is a useless skill.  There is nothing wrong with teaching this skill even if you do not use it your every day hunting.  It is just another level of finish that is nice to have when needed.


Good Luck!

Ken

[Cody Gruchow]

well how about those of use who's dogs are flushers, that knocks around everything you just said. yes i hunt with 2 different dogs at a time, they never fight over a bird. again i the crippling a bird i realize that even the best shooters it can happen, but this is were the hunter should help out the dog if the dog goes after the dead bird, you as a hunter should mark were that cripple bird hit the ground then send the dog after it. ive seen tons of different things happen, (hunting guide)

[Cody Gruchow]

ok this is what i purpose. sense theres a kids event coming up (still on i think) for pheasant hunting, anyone who wants to show off there dogs skills should go ahead and come. ill accept all challengers. who can hold your dog on flush and ill let mine go and we will see who comes back with more retreives.

[labs4me]

1st off,  I hunt with flushers too.  They can be trained to sit on the flush very easily. I think I also stated that mine are steady in the duck blind also.

2nd, I'm not in it that competitvley that my dog needs to make more retrieves than yours.  I have friends whose dogs will break on flush and I usually will stop mine and let their dog complete the retrieve.  No big deal, the job is done.  I have bigger things to worry about. 

By the way I was a 'guide' also for 2 seasons acouple of decades ago.  I always had my dogs steady on the flush when I was guiding.  Since I wasn't doing the shooting, I was able to keep their skills honed and I might as well have perfectly mannered dogs... oh and I almost forgot... we didn't lose many birds either, believe it or not. 

I'm just pointing out the flip side to why steadying is important to be judged in hunt tests and trials.  If you don't want to teach your dog to remain steady to flush, by all means don't.  Your style of hunting and what you percieve as good dog work will dictate to what level you train your dog.  There is no right or wrong answer to the question... just what makes you happy and brings you success.

Good Luck!

Ken

[Cody Gruchow]

well i use mine for duck hunting also, he dont move until i tell him to. i guess i understand the steadying on a flush, but i see it as being alot harder, lets say the bird starts running and you think your dog has him pegged and you make him sit and you go kick around trying to get the bird to flush, and the whole time your doing that the bird is already gone because its running and potentially already in another feild or in the woods. i stop mine if theres another dog infront of him until the bird is brought back or the dog cant find it then ill release him, every hunter should always visually mark were the bird goes down so, in case the dog mis marked it and yes it happens to even the best of dogs you can send him back on the right track. i have also never lost a bird. im very fortunate to have a great dog and to also work with alot of even better dogs

[labs4me]

Never lost a bird?!  WOW!  you'd be the only hunter I can honestly say I've heard that has ever uttered those words and meant it.
I've hunted with some incredible dogs and we have lost birds!


My dogs do the flushing for me... there is no need for me to kick around and flush a bird.  Even if one of my labs points, I still have them do the flush for me.  Steady to flush just implies after the bird is flushed and on wing the dog must remain at the point of origin on the flush...it has nothing to do with a live bird running on the ground. 

If you have a pointer, seems most guys want there dogs to be 'staunch' on point... at least the ones I've hunted behind.  If the bird relocates the dog is released to hunt it up again and hopefully pin it down the 2nd time around.  They are two seperate issues.  staunch on point and steady to flush.

Good Luck!

Ken