high fence huge bucks

[Mayfly]

To each his own.

I believe there are good ones and of course bad ones. 

Here is a good read....Nugent on Fenced Hunts. Interesting point of view coming from one of the most respected outdoorsman/hunters of all time.

Simply put, is high fence hunting, "hunting?

Of course, if all the factors of escape and stealth are in play. Terrain, size, layout,
balanced animal populations, the very conditions that determine quality hunting
anywhere determine the quality of the experience, fenced or unfenced. The easiest deer I've ever killed were whitetails in Illinois, Nebraska, and South Dakota, due to these universal truisms, but lack of hunting pressure. Conversely, the most difficult deer I have yet to kill are found on my own SpiritWild Ranch in central Texas where for the last 21 days, I haven't killed jack squat. Go figure.

Does high fence hunting degrade the heritage of American hunting and the notion of fair chase, and respect for wildlife and the quarry?

There will always be whiners and small-minded squawkers who overreact based on assumption and other unidentifiable presumptuous notions. There are those small minded individuals, a lunatic fringe if you will, that think many forms of legal hunting "degrade the heritage of American hunting." To their way of thinking, in-line muzzleloaders degrade our reputation. They consider scopes on same, treestands, compound bows, crossbows, deer drives, women afield, ad nauseam, as unethical methodologies. I've heard some real doozies out there and don't know whether to laugh or cry, they are so divisive and unsophisticated. I pray they become educated.

Do you personally prefer to hunt in enclosures or in the wild?

I prefer to hunt, period, and shall more and more each year everyplace I possibly can. I am a hunter.

Does the ready availability, for a price, of "monster bucks" in high fences affect the experience of hunting in the wild for those who cannot pay, or would not, hunt a high fence preserve?

Does the "ready availability" of monster bucks on open ground in Kansas, Iowa, Illinois, Texas, South Dakota, Wisconsin, Washington, or wherever they clearly flourish, change the dynamic of the overall "real" hunting experience? Of course not. Does hiring a guide in Alaska to hunt the mighty grizzly bear affect the experience? It is simply how it is, and I cannot imagine finding fault with any of it. Supply and demand, free choice, private property rights, good old American capitalism and entrepreneurialism are beautiful things.

Is high fence hunting in places like Idaho, or Colorado, where there are lots of public hunting opportunities, inappropriate? What about if the high fences block wild big game migration corridors or where domestic big game pose a disease threat to wild game herds?

Private property rights, supply and demand, freedom of choice, sustained yield and individual preference are the guiding forces in the America where I come from. Everybody knows that CWD &bovine TB are a direct result of our all-knowing government bureaucrats messing things up way back in 1967 and beyond. No believable evidence has ever been produced linking these diseases to fences.

Why do you or people that you know choose to hunt enclosed big game animals, rather than hunting in the wild? Is there a difference? In perception? in reality? (I know that you do hunt in the wild a great deal).

I gotta tell ya, your questions are loaded with assumptions and ignorant bias, almost as if you represented ABC news and its hippie dope smoking antihunting "journalists." That is quite a letdown coming from what was once a highly respected American hunting family magazine. I guide and outfit and hunt with 100s of great American hunters each fall with my Sunrize Safaris operation, and I am absolutely confident when I share with you that my hunters hunt every imaginable legal hunting we can find. We truly love it all.

I know that hunters need to stand together in the face of the anti-hunting forces. But I also see that those anti-hunting forces are given a great deal of fuel by pointing to "canned hunting" as a reason to attacks us. Do high fence operations create a public perception that hunting is just about killing, not about the experience of hunting and the conservation of wild game and wild places?

With all due respect, you don't know anyone who connects with a more or wider cross section of America in a public forum than I do each year. With my dedication to take the battle to the enemies' own trenches, I've conducted literally thousands of media interviews annually for more than 40 years; talkradio, newsradio, rock, sports, humor, everything from the BBC, Larry King and Rush Limbaugh to Howard Stern and Bob and Tom, cooking wildgame with Dana Carvey and John Ritter on Conan O'Brian and David Letterman. In these unprecedented mass media arenas the dialog and communication has been over-the-top positive in every instance because I don't back down nor compromise my absolutist stand on hunting, fishing, trapping and the 2nd Amendment. The antis are clearly a lunatic fringe that represent the laughing stock to ma &pa America. They are out to ban all hunting, and to be gullible and unsophisticated enough to think that giving up or joining them in condemning any single hunting methodology is pathetically out of touch. I implore you to ignore them. I consider the Troy Gentry/Cubby the Bear shooting incident an anomaly, but anti-hunters will love it. Does it indicate that somewhere, high fence hunting needs to develop some standards? The embarrassing Gentry incident is remembered by no one, except Troy. I read nearly all the reports back when it happened. Not only were "fences" not mentioned, the entire incident didn't even quality as a blip on the radar. A big zero.

Is there a high fence hunting experience that you personally would feel is objectionable? A place too small? Animals too tame? Where do we draw the lines? One of my best interviews concerns the "meeting place between livestock and hunting" Any thoughts on this?
Personally objectionable, yes. Too small -- of course. Too tame -- of course. Again, I repeat, though the word "tame" has never come into play, the calmest animals I have ever hunted were free ranging whitetails in Illinois where there was near zero hunting pressure. Would I do that again? Hell yeah!

Do you feel that the many high fence operations in existence now, and the growing numbers of them, represent a "privatization" of the hunting experience, as in Europe, and does that pose a threat to the "public resource" idea of wild big game that is a cornerstone of the unique American model of wildlife restoration and conservation?

Nope. All private hunting in America whether fenced or nonfenced is controlled by private landowners. America is blessed with vast public grounds, and I do wish the hunting industry and community would put forth the proper effort to open up every square inch of majestic big game country currently owned by "we the people" instead of the vulgar anti-American corruption currently in place where soulless bureaucrats
continue to charge American tax payers to hire killers of our game where we are not allowed to utilize it properly. That should be Job One for F&S and every sporting concern in America right now.

Is this controversy over high fence hunting operations going to have a negative effect on American hunting? Will more high fence operations make hunting in the wild less attractive? Make conservation of wild lands and habitat seem less important? Will it become the norm (it seems far more accepted now than it used to be)? What are the implications of that?
No. The powerful heart of the American hunter and adventurer is alive and well in this great land. Recruitment of this instinct in our young people is the most important guarantee for the future of conservation and the environment. My own Ted Nugent Kamp for Kids and its amazing volunteers have been doing just that for 20-plus years. SCI, NRA, NWTF, RMEF, DU, Delta Waterfowl, FNAWS, 4H, FFA, National Archery in Schools programs, NSSF, NFAA, and every sporting org out there are upgrading their mentorship programs and finally reaching out to more and more young Americans outside our sporting community. It is thrilling to note that my various TV productions, Surviving Nugent, Wanted Ted Or Alive, SuperGroup, and Ted Nugent Spirit of the Wild have all achieved top ratings on not only OLN, CMT, and The Outdoor Channel, but wonderfully top-rated on the anti's networks of VH1 and MTV, every show celebrating, defending my gungho hunting, fishing,trapping, shooting lifestyle.

[Auggie]

  Good old Uncle Ted!
     So Pat is the only one with an opinion on farm ponds? I was just curious. Many of my clients that are anti high fence don't see a problem mounting that 1.5-2 lb bluegill caught from Old McDonald's farm pond. 
      Now before any of you say we are not comparing apples to apples I will tell you why I posed this question. It is because of disease and undesirable species I bring this up. Most people tend to think disease is a big problem with farmed animals, and they will pass it on to the wild. Disease can be transferred more easily by these stocked fish, which hit nearly every lake in the state. Can the problem be identified when a gull or pelican make the transfer, or when Bubba thinks he helped out the local waters by introducing a bucket of fish or minnows from the local pond into your favorite lake? Nope. But on the other hand the paper trail left by the farmed cervidae industry can be tracked right back to the original owner. And I don't think the birds will be moving any of my deer.

[guythathunts]

I think MOST of us can come to terms that it is different. Fence/no fence, guide/no guide, lake/farm pond. I can say this, there would be less pride for me to get a monster (buck, fish whatever...) in a controlled way. Here is a good way to test it if you are on the fence: Would you do it if you won it? How about if you married into a family that owned/ran it? Would you take a free hunt? I would. I think it would be fun too. Also, if I shot a monster buck... I WOULD MOUNT IT. I respect animals and I would want to display the trophy! When people came over and looked at it I would say "and that's the one I shot on the game farm/with a guide ext...". There is no shame in that. As a matter of fact, if the person at my house was being cocky, or was a jerk I would say "and that's the one I shot on public land right by your house!!!!" That is part of it! I can understand the comments from both sides,  but I think one side may be on a fairly "High Horse".

[beeker]

a few african sparrows flying together could move a deer.. (sorry a spin on monty pythons holy grail)...  I have hunted pheasants and chuckers at game farms.. mainly for training myself and the dog. these birds are never big enough where you would mount one. but I know for extra $$$ they offer some bigger ones or black or white ones if you want to pay for it.
fishing isn't really a big pursuit of mine, I spent my summers as a kid on a bait farm and playing with minnows and frogs got old for me. fish farms are responsible for those stupid flying carp that are moving up river, a farm flooded where they were using those as parasite control or something like that?

[beeker]

 and to be 100% honest if I won a trip to a game farm and shot me a big one I would mount it and I would hang it next to my other deer. 

[guythathunts]

Amen Beeker. Amen.

[Mayfly]

I don't think that a lot of people actually understand what a "fenced" hunt is. Some of these ranches have 1000's of acres and they are fenced. They are fenced to protect the genes and the deer they have managed and managed. These deer are living life like they would anywhere else. They just know that they are not going to wander into the neighbors property and get whacked or get run over by a car somewhere.

Yes there are hunts like the whole Gentry fiasco and a few others over the years and I agree..that is bs. But these first-class outfiiters that run a decent outfit I have no problem with. The problem is when a bunch of "Hunters" get together and don't know exactly what they are talking about and then everything, god and bad, gets lumped together. That fuels the fire for the anti-hunters (PETA) because they know even less.

There are good outfits and there are bad ones. I don't think it is fair to lump them together. The subject is a lot more complicated then just saying all fenced hunts are bs, rigged, unethical...



My 2 Cents....

[Model12]

I understand exactly what high fence is all about. First let me say that the wildlife in the state belong to the people and are just that, wildlife. The animals in a high fence area belong to farmers/ranchers and are livestock.
The notion that high fence is a good educational tool or for those that don't have a place to go, or for those aging people that can't go to the mountains, great place for kids to learn in a controled situation, place for physically challenged peoople to hunt...blah, blah, blah...is a truck load of b.s..
I also would like most of you to understand until recently there hasn't been any sort of regulation of how large a place needs to be, to be able to have such an operation and as a result it is now being considered/scrutinized by a number of organizations. A couple knuckleheads that have just enough land to hold a few animals thought they'd get in the game and run a "hunting operation". No doubt they make money but make it worse for the game farmers. Its about money, period. Go blow hot air up someone else's skirt if you say it's not about money and you just want to provide a service to others. If that was entirely true, they wouldn't be marketed as hunting operations. You have enough sheep out there that'll BS themselves thinking it is hunting and pay for it. I'd like to see one operation advertise they sell an animal that is considered a trophy in a true hunting situation but note that it is nothing like a hunt. Never in a million years because they want the "client" to think they're hunting. There in lies the problem. IT IS NOT HUNTING...go b.s. someone else. Yeah, you can hunt 10 days hard in a fenced area and never see an animal. By the same token, you can shoot an animal in 5 minutes on a 80,000acre wilderness area. However, it seldom happens.
My biggest bitch about it is that some people take kids to these places as their first hunt thinking they're doing the kid a service. Then, the kid accepts this as hunting (Because everyone intentionally keeps him from the reality of what it really is). Then the little worm shoots a trophy animal and rubs his buddies dicks in the dirt that he got a "better" animal. Little do they know he was shooting on a farm while they were hunting free range animals. It destroys the heritage of hunting. And it will continue to do it. Until hunters step up and call it what it is, it will destroy hunting as we know it. Fine, run a high fence operation and let people pay you to shoot animals looked at as trophy's; but call it that. Don't send anyone home w/the idea they hunted the animal as the animals the state owns and regulates through hunting seasons w/much higher regulation and incredibly lower odds of harvesting.
Another last note before I have to grab a handful of HBP meds...my great grandfather, grandfather, father and my kids have all learned to go w/o filling a pile of tags, miss birds and still enjoy hunting. We will continue to fill some tags and not fill others because we appreciate HUNTING. Until the high fence operations make a distinction between what they do and hunting, it will diminish what people think about hunting and the role HUNTING has. I know the role animal farming has...it's been going on since the beginning of time...they just figured out how to call it something else and make more money.

[stevejedlenski]

how true

[deadeye]

Lots of very good arguments on both side of this issue.  Lots of good information.  Thanks for the posts.

[Spinach]

Wonderful post derron aka model12. I know a lot of time was spent in your post and I really appreciate it, my thoughts exactly!!!

[Spinach]

Forgot to say that teds article was terrible, he sure best around the bush and never answered the questions directly. Ted nugent is an icon for all Outdoorsman but that article is very bad.

[Model12]

This is a topic that can get very ugly as it has considerably more facets to it than I posted up earlier. No matter how you soice it, it's not hunting. It takes a little more refined eye to discuss it and we've only scratched the surface.
In addressing the fishing thing in a farm pond...my question is, are or were the fish indigenous to that pond? Did they get there by natural means i.e. did they swim upstream or was it intended to become a "natural" fishery or will it need "farming" practices to maintain it?
When you catch a big fish and want to "register" it or whatever you do w/a large fish don't you have to state the lake you caught it in? Well, if you lie and say it was a real fishery, fine. You lied. You are a liar. If  you say you caught it in a stocked pond of some sort, fine. You caught it in a stocked pond and I don't care if you mounted it or not.
I think it's pretty clear that everyone holds fair chase animals in higher regard (out of instinct) than that of artificially manipulated catches or kills.
The last thing we need as Hunter's/Fishermen is to be divided. What absolutely sticks me in the gut is how the high fencer's say, we're all hunters and we need to stick together and if we denounce high fence hunting, we're dividing. I say, horsecrap, we need to stick together and they ervert back to when they learned to hunt and when they made a concious decision to start farming and call it hunting.
As far as put and take bird shooting...I agree that it CAN be educational for training dogs. However, it gets abused just as high fencers say their "hunts" are for those less fortunate in physical stature. Check their books,...99% are incredibly affluent and aren't out to shoot any old deer. Some say they're training their dogs but in reality, they're massaging a business client and snapping photos as if they were in the mountains of Nevada hunting wild chuckar. If you need to train your dog, grab some pigeons out of a barn, buy some, pay the neighbor kid to get some and train your dog. Remember, we have a heritage here and it can still be learned the same way other's trained the first hunting dogs. Pigeons are not obsolete or too expensive to utilize.
If you're out to shoot some pen raised birds and make it look like hunting, go ahead. Just  know you aren't hunting and don't pass it off that way.
A guy once put it to me this way...sex is two people getting naked etc and having just that, sex. But it's an entirely different thing when a guy roughs up a chick, strips her down and has is way w/her. It's not sex, it's called rape. Alot of things take place that are similar but by no means is it the same thing. He said, quite honestly I really like sex and wonder how someone could think rape is the same thing.
Kind of a brutal analogy but EVERYONE knows what's right is right and what's not right, is not right. Don't confuse them and please don't confuse them for the kids about what hunting is. The heritage of hunting came first. If you want to start a heritage of killing farmed animals, make clear this is a new game but by no means is it the heritage of hunting.

[Stensethfan]

It took some time, but I read this thread and say that I cannot agree with Model12 enough.  I think that there needs to be some sort of distinction between the two types of taking game.  One is natural and the other one is controlled to some varying degree.  That being said I don't really care if people want to spend thousands to hunt in a fenced area to increase their odds of a trophy.  I just have a hard time with these operations trying to pawn off the fact (mostly on TV)that their trophy hunts are equal to taking a Buck, for this example, on public or private non fenced land.  I hate seeing these shows where they pass 180 inch deer because they are not 5 1/2 years old yet.  There is not one single human that would not shoot a 180 inch 3 1/2 year old deer on private or public land, but they pass them on TV shows saying they are "managing the heard.''  What crap, and to piggy back with model12, that is definitely not the "hunting" I am aware of as being hunting.  These operations need to belly up and start to act as hunters, but of a different type.  I am all for making money and making people feel great about themselves, but for the love of everything good lets not try to act like it is the same thing as sitting out in Carlos Avery and seeing 100 orange people per day because it is not.

[Cody Gruchow]

now here is were we are going to have a problem. dont take shots at game farms. or ones that provide birds for people to use for dog training. and yes training a dog at a game farm is way more benifitable than training them on public land with pigeons. so your saying training a dog at a game farm is all wrong because they use chukars? Or is it because its just a game farm in general? whats bad about a game farm pheasant? only thing your getting is a bird that hasn't been shot at. These birds come and go from the farms after being released. i should know i work at a  game farm. And trust me these birds come and go as they please. What about places like Sutten bay south dakota? Are they bad places to because they fit into the catagory(sp) of a game farm. well sorry to tell you this but quite a few of these birds that get shot on public land are game farm birds or can be traced back to birds that came from a game farm. Or how about this 488 acres parcel of pheasant forever land i hunt in glencoe. i know for a FACT that 90% of those birds are game farm birds. Also sutten bay they have to tally the amount of birds they shoot every year and at the end of the year release that many birds plus 25% more i beleive the number is. and guess what all those BIRDS RELEASED aint wild birds. Who cares if they guys are trying to impress clients thats there business and theres alone. the only thing a game farm does is provide the birds, you still have to find the birds, you still have to hit the birds, they get just as jumpy as wild birds.

[jkcmj]

Forgot to say that teds article was terrible, he sure best around the bush and never answered the questions directly. Ted nugent is an icon for all Outdoorsman but that article is very bad.

I enjoyed Ted's article and his common sense responses.  The guy gets it, and many others here do not.  It is the thrill of the kill in the fenced hunts, not necessarily the challenge of the hunt, as you would get in the wild.  If you don't enjoy it, don't do it.  Settle down boys, and enjoy hunting the way you want, and let others enjoy theirs.

[Model12]

Cody,

no doubt we're going to have a problem...we already do and always will. I should've stated the difference on my opinion on put/take operations. I don't have as huge as an issue with them, as often, the birds can/do get away. On the flip side, some have to be kicked to get up and will never fly. Bottom line is where does the line get drawn? You answer that and I'll kiss your arse 'til you bark like a fox if you come up with what's right and what's not.
I'll agree there is considerably more merit in utilizing put/take places when it comes to training dogs vs. taking a kid to a high fence operation. So when is the dog weaned from that sort of shooting and only go on wild birds?! Or is the repeated trips back for "a little brush up".
I can partially agree with jkcmj about settling down and enjoy hunting the way you like it...just don't call killing pen raised animals/birds hunting.
I go to the batting cage and hit 16 out of 40 balls but I don't say I have a .400 batting average as a baseball player. NO, I hit 16 of 40 while in the batting cage and has little to do with playing a baseball game (even though I dressed up in my uniform, put in a chew and pretended to be a ball player). It only helps me get ready to actually play a real game.

[Mayfly]

Forgot to say that teds article was terrible, he sure best around the bush and never answered the questions directly. Ted nugent is an icon for all Outdoorsman but that article is very bad.

I enjoyed Ted's article and his common sense responses.  The guy gets it, and many others here do not.  It is the thrill of the kill in the fenced hunts, not necessarily the challenge of the hunt, as you would get in the wild.  If you don't enjoy it, don't do it.  Settle down boys, and enjoy hunting the way you want, and let others enjoy theirs.

I agree.

If I had the money I would shop at a fenced hunt operation over a grocery store any day! 

Of course its not "hunting" but then again I never said it was.... According to my definition.

[bowhunter73]

  I for one do not think I would ever do a fenced hunt. I do want to arrow a monster but I choose to let the chase go as long as needed to get him in the wild and to beat the other hunters around me.

 I think that every body should have a choice to hunt how they want fenced or no fence.

I do have a problem with the size of some of the outfitters. I know one place in Wisconsin that has HUGE deer but they only have 80 acres. And are not to scared of humans, you can even pick the deer you want released. Now that’s a mans sport- NOT.

However, if you are in TX on 1000-5000 acres, you are hunting wild deer they are just culled to increase your chance at a big buck. And the feeders are legal so I do not have a problem with that either. Ask you are self what you would rather waste your time getting upset about some dam poacher or a hunter that is legal but he or she just does it different from you.

[Auggie]

    Model 12, I don't remember anyone say it was hunting here including me. It can be very similar at large ranches to a wild hunting experience how ever. I am the first to admit it is farming. What is wrong with re inventing the wheel? What is wrong with making a $ on our live stock. The cost is not high only because of the large racks and the PUBLIC DEMAND for such an industry. It is high because a tremendous amount of money and time goes into each deer to produce them. Most people that have these ignorant views, about an industry you OBVIOUSLY do not understand, have views that are fueled by jealousy.
    In no way shape or form does it degrade your hunting heritage. That is where the truck load of b.s. comes from. If you don't want to do it, or don't want your kids to do it, don't do it. Pretty simple. Many people enjoy it. You don't, and that is your right. But don't come in here preaching like you are so high and mighty above all the folks that choose to do it. If your kid gets his dick rubbed into the ground about the deer he shot by the kid that got to go on a ranch hunt so be it. If it wasn't about the deer, it would have been about the shoes he had on. Or the jeans they wear. If your doing your job as a parent there is nothing to worry about.
     It is about cash no doubt. But where is the problem with that. Free enterprise is what this nation is built on. There will always be the haves and the have nots. Nothing new. Like it or not this industry is here, and here to stay. It drives everything from the Real Tree Camo you put on your back all the way through the calls, scents, seeds, tree stands,........and so on. Most of your favorite outdoor TV shows and "hunting" magazines would be non existent with out it. Big racks sell. They sell every thing. Supply and demand will dictate this industry. Right now the demand out weighs the supply by a great deal. There is a place for high fence operations and all of the benefits they can provide whether you want to admit it or not. The numbers don't lie. This is private cash. The cash we should be concerned with is the public cash that funds our natural resources that are owned by the public. If the DNR spent more time manging our resources for the good of the resource instead of revenue from license sales we would all be better off. If you want to get your BP worked up over cash, direct it that way.
      As for the whole fish debate, 90% of the lakes are either stocked with farmed fish, or managed in some way to increase trophy class fish. I was just showing people how similar the two really are when you stop and open your eyes and really look at it.

[Auggie]

Forgot to say that teds article was terrible, he sure best around the bush and never answered the questions directly. Ted nugent is an icon for all Outdoorsman but that article is very bad.

I enjoyed Ted's article and his common sense responses.  The guy gets it, and many others here do not.  It is the thrill of the kill in the fenced hunts, not necessarily the challenge of the hunt, as you would get in the wild.  If you don't enjoy it, don't do it.  Settle down boys, and enjoy hunting the way you want, and let others enjoy theirs.

   P.S. Model12, jkcmj said it best!

[Model12]

Auggie,

I think we actually agree more than we disagree. Where we diverge is the cover high fence shooting uses to guises itself. It ENTIRELY tries/wants/needs to mimic hunting. You can't debate that. If we're going to reinvent the wheel, it's an outright admission that you're modifying the "orginial" form. Are we perfecting it, doing it justice or otherwise? The folks that go high fence don't want to differentiate from it. You know how it clouds hunting issues. Go and anwer the same interiew Uncle Ted had and see how your own answers come out. I gotta ask, does free range hunting affect high fence negatively?
I agree it's free enterprise, and have at it, because the laws are such that it can. Not one single business is going to step up and denounce it when so much money hits their bottom line without any expense. The only people that support it are those that run them and those that shoot in them.
Hell, if it was in fact a better reinvention of the wheel or largely promoted the sport in a positive light you know I'd be on board with it. But it doesn't and they are two different things.
I work in the industry as well and have been offered scores of hunts in high fence situations all over. It is a different culture of people, to be sure. I personally think the culture of new hunters as well as the ease of high fencing has changed the culture and there in lies the supply/demand issue. Trust me, there is zero jealousy or envy on my end. I have the means to pay for them and it doesn't enter the equation.
I apologize if I come off high and mighty and I don't see the need for me to further express my feelings/thoughts about the issue. It ought to be pretty clear and there are so many other facets to this debate none of us have the time for. Please consider that I understand the economics of it...good and bad.
Best to you all the rest of the season and same goes for the hardwater season.

[Mayfly]

**This news fits the subject**



Austin, Texas / Minnesota man helped smuggle trophy deer
Associated Press

Updated: 11/25/2008 11:58:56 PM CST


Two men have been sentenced to federal prison for illegally transporting white-tailed deer across state lines from Minnesota to Texas, according to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.

The deer were transported for trophy hunts.

A federal district judge in Plano, Texas, on Monday sentenced Robert Eichenour, owner of Circle E Ranch in Bedias in Grimes County, to 1 1/2 years in prison. He also must serve three years' probation after his release and pay a $50,000 fine.

Brian Becker, of Madelia, Minn., was sentenced to two years and nine months in federal prison, followed by three years' probation.

Both men were convicted of felony violations of the federal Lacey Act, which prohibits the transportation of illegally captured or prohibited animals across state lines.

During the probation period, neither man will be allowed to sell deer.

The department said in a news release that Eichenour and Becker were caught smuggling 14 white-tailed bucks from Minnesota to Eichenour's ranch. Investigators say the plan was for Eichenour to bring in hunters and sell hunts for the trophy Minnesota bucks. The investigation found that over a four-year period, the two smuggled about $300,000 worth of white-tailed bucks.

The men were caught in an October 2006 smuggling sting operation Texas Parks and Wildlife conducted with U.S. Fish and Wildlife agents.

[22lex]

**This news fits the subject**



Austin, Texas / Minnesota man helped smuggle trophy deer
Associated Press

Updated: 11/25/2008 11:58:56 PM CST


Two men have been sentenced to federal prison for illegally transporting white-tailed deer across state lines from Minnesota to Texas, according to the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department.

The deer were transported for trophy hunts.

A federal district judge in Plano, Texas, on Monday sentenced Robert Eichenour, owner of Circle E Ranch in Bedias in Grimes County, to 1 1/2 years in prison. He also must serve three years' probation after his release and pay a $50,000 fine.

Brian Becker, of Madelia, Minn., was sentenced to two years and nine months in federal prison, followed by three years' probation.

Both men were convicted of felony violations of the federal Lacey Act, which prohibits the transportation of illegally captured or prohibited animals across state lines.

During the probation period, neither man will be allowed to sell deer.

The department said in a news release that Eichenour and Becker were caught smuggling 14 white-tailed bucks from Minnesota to Eichenour's ranch. Investigators say the plan was for Eichenour to bring in hunters and sell hunts for the trophy Minnesota bucks. The investigation found that over a four-year period, the two smuggled about $300,000 worth of white-tailed bucks.

The men were caught in an October 2006 smuggling sting operation Texas Parks and Wildlife conducted with U.S. Fish and Wildlife agents.

Demand outweighed right to be free in this case I guess.

Auggie, how many deer contribute to 300 thousand worth? I know the article said they were caught smuggling 14 deer, but over a period of three years they smuggled in 300k worth. How many deer is that?

[stevejedlenski]

depends on what they were charging for harvest their website charges about 3000 for 130" and 12000 for 190" so on an average i would say about 46 deer + -

[Spinach]

This thread has really opened my eyes, I never really gave it much thought before. I learned a lot from auggies and model12's posts. I really appreciate both of you explaining this in more detail. Your right in that none of us have the time on this forum to tell the whole story! Its great that every one of us agrees with the main issues. Hopefully this thread continues over time and it opens the eyes of more outdoorsman. Thanks again

[jd mn/nd]

Yah I agree that freaks of nature are cool to see like the ones on the first page of this thread. However highfence hunting is not hunting, it is killing and harvesting, it is just like paying a farmer to go out and shoot one of his cattle and no different, and the end results are exactly the same meat in the freezer. The sad part is that these animals end up being recorded as records in Safari club international, Boone and Crokett, and Pope and young, that is not fair nor is it ethical to the REAL hunters who put their time in, in the real woods, and paid their years of dues of sitting out in the real woods (wild).

Yah if that is what you can afford, and that is all that you have time for, is just killing and harvesting, then I guess to each their own. But do not insult the rest of the general populas that are REAL hunters that take THIER chances out in the wild like real stewards of the outdoors, by calling yourselfs hunters because you are anything but. Hell the only thing they don't do is put them on a leash and tie them to a tree for you. Heck they even come complete with a serial number micro chip implanted under thier skin so that they can positivly indentify them incase they escape or are shot by someone that did not pay them for it. Oh lest we not forget the nice piece of jewelry hanging from thier ear with the herd number on it, heck you can say "I shot #52 got him right in the bread basket, he was so stupid he walked right up to me at 30 yards and just stood there looking at me." Yah right all he was looking for was his daily ration of grain that he normally got from a human probably right out of thier hand. I especially like the way that one monster ran right up to the camera when they shook the grain bucket, it only took them 15 seconds to cross the pasture and get to less than 10 yards from the camera operator. That seems real challenging to me!!! The good news is for folks that hunt inside the 12 foot high fence is that if your a lousy shot or had too many the night before and you miss all you have to do is run them into the corner of the fence and then are trapped and you can empty your clip into them.

I am sorry for the rant here folks but you really have to look at this the right way it is a business and they are trading in animals, they sell only to the wealthy, and the wealthy pay because because it is quick and easy, all of it can be done in a matter of an hour or so. The ranch owner saw an opportunity to go from starving and struggeling to rich and famous butt kisser. You really can not blame them that the demand for this type of outdoor activities is present, however I do believe that the state goverment of each and every state should make this type of activity illegal. This would put a stop to alot of different problems that are now facing the hunting community. They could go after not only the shooter but they could also nail the rancher for trading in animals. I believe that this is only the start of the demise to OUR hunting future soon it will be if you do not own or lease land of your own you will not have any where to hunt, and I do not believe for one second that hunting for anyone should be that way.

Later JD

[22lex]

JD,

Not to disagree with you, but in order to register the animals into BC/PY (not sure on Safari) that one of the conditions is that they are wild, free ranging animals.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

If this is correct that they do have to be wild, free ranging animals, then the people who are recorded in the books are just cheating, and lying to themselves.

I hope not to offend anyone but it's all numbers to the farmers (like Auggie stated about rack size), and we are led to believe that is what hunting is all about (with regards to rack size) by the tv shows, and marketing strategies aimed at us midwesterners. That is not why I hunt.

What we should be worried about it the affects canned hunting has on the negative/positives on our rights to hunt in the coming years. I will not beat someone down for making money legally, as I will not shun someone for shooting a whitetail for 10K 'cause they have the money. On the flipside will I have the same type of respect for that person as I would for someone who put the time in and harvested one from public land? NO.

[Mayfly]

JD,

Not to disagree with you, but in order to register the animals into BC/PY (not sure on Safari) that one of the conditions is that they are wild, free ranging animals.

Someone correct me if I am wrong.

No. I believe you are right.....

[jd mn/nd]

yes you are correct that is the rule however that does not meant that those people are adhereing to the rules and many of them do cheat to get thier name in the book. But hey what can expect from someone that is willing to shoot a caged animal?

There are a lot of cheats in the book and no way to really prove it unfortunatly.

Later JD