Having first litter?

[Joe]

Vickie,

I've got an English Setter that I'm thinking about breeding. This will not only be her first litter, but mine as well. So I feel like I have a ton of questions, but I'm not even sure what most of them are yet. ???

She will be 2 in February "07" and I was thinking about having her bred when she comes into her next cycle, which should be around May or June.(she's in heat now) Is this considered too young?

[vickieschessies]

MJ
Is this her first heat or second? She is 11/2 years old by my calculation right? This would be fine to breed her She will be over 2 by then.   Make sure to put her on a good puppy chow(I like the Iams puppy but everyone like different foods) about 4 wks into her gestation period.

[Joe]

This is her second heat. She had one right around a year old. I still need to find a good stud, but I guess I'm wondering what I should do once we have a successfull mating. Or am I getting ahead of myself.  ??? I'm concerned about missing something important trying to be prepared. This is my little girl we're talking about and I want to be as prepared as I can.

Another thing I'm wondering about is what is the cost per pup? I'm not sure of everything I need to take of.

[Mayfly]

Joe....

Just curious, why is it that you are thinking of breeding your dog?

[vickieschessies]

Everyone has different reasons for wanting to breed their dog.  Ask yourself a couple of questions. Does your female have some outstanding traits you would like to bring out in a breeding, what are her weak points, are you looking to keep a pup etc...... Start looking now for a stud  as it may take you up to a year to find one.
Puppies are hard work and demand alot of time.  In fact Wreck-n started having pups at 2:00 am and finished at 9:00 am so was up many hours in that day very little sleep. I also get 2 to 3 times each night for the first week to check and make sure mom is not laying on a pup. Then there is dew claw removal. At three weeks you will have to start supplementing the pups as mom won't produce enough milk and will get run down quick at this point. I feed small amounts to the pups every 3-4 hours and 1 time in the middle of the night.  Plus then social time is needed I devote a couple of 3-4 hours each day for playtime and at 4 weeks I start wing introductions.
This is for a normal litter now if there are any complications..... Just be prepared for anything goes
Cost of pup this will be up to you and the stud you are breeding too. In some cases a breeder will ask you for OFA or Penn Hip certifications and eye cerf. OFA can't be done until their 2yr of age. Just some thoughts

[little river]

Joe, I think Mayfly was actually trying to get somewhere by asking the question "why do you want to breed her?"

The reason is, breeding dogs is not like picking apples off of a tree. There are tons to it you can never imagine if you have never been serious about breeding in the past.

First off, before you ever decide breeding I would really like to advise you to go out on the net, there are tons of places and start doing some reading on Canine Genetics. We all know how messed up our labs are these days with all the genetic issues that are going on in that breed. A lot of these came on because they got so popular, so easy to sell, and people thought they could make a quick buck. Dog breeding doesn't work that way. At least if you do it correctly it doesn't.

I have been breeding over 20 years and my father 30 before that and I still don't have it all figured out. I can't tell you how many times I have spent in excess of three or four months trying to find that male field champion(because those are the lines I choose to breed on because I can optimize my breedings easier through linebreeding) just to find out there was no way I was going to be able to do the best breeding I thought possible, so I let her go open.

Simply having a dog that shows great hunt and is very good with kids and people is not a good enough reason anymore. There is too much at stake.

Your pointing dog breeds are still fairly clean genetically, especially compared to labs and a lot of other breeds so you may get away with it, but why risk it? Why not leave breeding to the folks who devote tons of time to each and every breeding. I am not saying just because someone has been breeding a long time and has produced a bunch of litters they should be breeding either. There are a ton of so called pro breeders out there that have no business breeding dogs.

I know of a lady who owned a National Field Champion who sired him out hundreds, if not thousands of times knowing full well this dog carried Muscular Myopathy. Not only that, but she would actually tell perspective bitch owners that it was all rumors and the dog did not carry the gene for myopathy, people were just supposedly jealous. I had to put down an entire litter that was sired from this dog several years ago. This was before any test was available for the gene and I had no idea, nor did anyone else that I knew of that the bitch line also carried the disorder. I found out later that the owners my female was out of, who were and still are very prevalent in the field trial world did in fact know. It doesn't get much worse then that and these people are so called pro breeders, had bred tons of litters and were and still are successful with many of their dogs. She simply let the money situation interfere with what she knew to be right and wrong. I still wonder if she regrets it to this day. I would have to say no being the dog is still producing puppies and more then likely will for years after he is dead.

Unless you are well versed in the lineage of your dog back many generations, and the lineage of any male you are planning on breeding and know them to be fairly stable, well as stable as labs can get these days don't do the breeding. I know you are looking at breeding a pointer which will probably save you.

Just know and try to understand this. If you do not know how to properly manipulate genetics, understand line breeding and know how to use any one of a number of inbreeding coefficient softwares out there you are taking a larger risk then if you have the time to verse yourself on the topic, at least to the best of your ability without help which is hard to come by. This is only a handful of what breeders need to know to be able to consistently produce great, uniform litters of pups.

This is a fact and not just a statement off the wall, but if you don't understand your coefficients, lineage, reversed linked genes, genotype, phonetype and the other thousand factors involved in breeding you probably have a better chance of beating Jordan in a game of one on one then producing consistant litters of above average pups. The main goal in breeding is to be able to produce puppies that are better then the parents on every level. Not just performance.

Knowing this little bit of information I will throw one better at you. If you don't understand your genetics, you really have no better chance of producing a UNIFORM LITTER of great pups by breeding two great gun dogs or two field champions together for that matter, then if you would of simply bred to ODIE down the block. That is a fact and not an off the wall statement.

If you do your breedings correctly there is little to no money in breeding dogs. At least until you hit the stage where you can start getting 1500 a pup or better. It happens but it can take many years of doing things right before you get your name out there so you can make a little profit, which I might add once you do make that little profit you will more then likely end up shoving it right back into your lines to try and make even better dogs, which is the way it really should be.

It is terrible what happened to the labs because of their popularity and I hate to think about that happening to any of the pointing breeds, or any other breed for that matter.

I hope you have good luck with whatever you decide. The one reason that fires me up the most for doing a breeding is when someone either tells me or makes the statement that "WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A GOOD EXPERIENCE FOR THE KIDS!!!!!" Yea, just wait until you have to put an entire litter of those little kids puppies down because of some genetic issue that came out into the entire litter.

I do sincerely hope it works out well for you if you decide to do a breeding, but I also hope you try and educate yourself as much as possible first. At least you have a little advantage, you have the bitch. When someone has the stud they have almost no chance of doing a breeding to the best of their ability. They have so fewer options.

I know everyone needs to start somewhere and if you are truly wanting to start breeding dogs and trying to better the breed then kudos. Unfortunately there are so many so called pro breeders out there that will criticize a person for trying to get into the game but it is also these same folks that won't lift a finger to help someone out with their breedings in the beginning either. Most of us who have bred for a long time still bounce breedings off of our peers. No one knows everything, actually most of us know a lot less then we think. LOL

Good Luck, hope it works out well for you. Like I said, being it is a pointing breed you have a little advantage being they are more genetically stable then our poor little lab buddies.

Good Hunting and training all.

[Joe]

Thanks for all the info. I'm not starting a breeding operation. This would be a one time deal. I'm also not doing it for the money. I have my own reasons or reason why, but I prefer not to make that public info.

My pup is registered in the field dog stud book and I've obtained a certified pedigree going back 5 generations, so I'm certain of her lines. She's very heavy in the Tekoa Mountain Sunrise line. (31-266-1761)

I'm not positive I'm going to breed her next year, but if I was, that would be a good time. I may just wait until she is 5 or 6 and then keep one of the pups myself.

I'm just trying to be prepared.   

[jigglestick]

for what it's worth, I have been on both sides of this fence.
I can understand the position Joe is in, for as much information as he has made available.
and yes I agree Joe, it is your business and need only be discussed in a public forum as you choose to or not.
I understand little river's point as well. striving for generations to achieve the ultimate in perfection in regards to the breed standard in genetics and performance.

"Why not leave breeding to the folks who devote tons of time to each and every breeding?"

I'll tell you why. because most people can not afford dogs that cost more than a few hundred bucks.

little river, if you offer a dog of quality breeding and lineage for under $300.00 I will drop it.
I am willing to bet your deposits alone are near that.
I don't have a problem with that. my problem lies in the intimidation of someone who's brother or cousin or neighbor is looking for a utility dog that is both available and affordable, into thinking there is no possible way they should continue thinking of breeding their dog.

where I get hung up is someone like little river lambasting someone like Joe with words and terminology to a point where he wondered what the hell he was ever thinking.

I cant help but pick up just the teensiest bit of arrogance little river. if it is not meant that way please forgive me. the internet leaves much to interpretation.

I have however seen to many times breeders so high on themselves with this privileged knowledge that they cant even hold a conversation with common dog owners.
it makes me want to puke.

little river instead as coming off as a know it all in the dog world, maybe start an article explaining some of your terminology as simply as you can to make it understandable.
I am sure there are many who would find it interesting when put into an informative context.
you sound as though you, if you would choose to do so, could offer alot to our readers, whom without, this forum would not exist.
give it some thought.

one point I forgot to make was that any breedings such as Joe is talking about, unless extensive research is done, should be registrations on a limited basis.
that means the pups could be registered if they choose, but if they choose to breed those dogs, they would not be able to register the litters, making them no more than utility purpose animals.
the risk that is run is that these dogs are used and fraudulent papers be used to shuffle them through as registered purebreds. the outcome of such a circumstance is to obvious to require elaboration.

[Outdoors Junkie]

Hey Joe.

While I was growing up in east central MN, my parents decided to breed our female Golden Retriever.  My mom bought a few books, my dad talked with friends who owned a kennel.  We were not professional breeders, but we had three different litters.  It was a family affair, and it was a great positive experience.  We sold the pups, and didn't have any issues.  The whole
process are great memories my sisters and I will never forget.  I say go for it!

[Benny]

Man I just knew there would be some breeder who would chime in and say just exactly what Littleriver said.

I see this crap from breeders and kennel owners at every single web site to do with dogs.

They are just plain scared that you might take away a possible customer from them , they are nothing but greedy people who just want to make a big profit by putting any one down who even thinks about having their female bread.

Now to vickieschessies? defense I was pleased to see their responce, it is very refreshing to see there actually is a breeder out there who is not all about "profit" and can give sound advice about what they experienced and not try to discurage you.

Yea I know all about the genetics and how the breads are getting less pure,I researched this subject Farly well before I even bought my lab.

I looked into the high end expensive dogs, and found them to ultimately be just like the lower priced pups in terms of lineage and garranties.

The vice president of my company bought a $1500 lab pup from a kennel in Wisconson, only to find out later that the kennel was hiding the fact that they mistakenly bread in hip dysplacia at some point.

So when his dog came up lame he asked for a refund but was told "sure , but we want the dog back so we can distroy it"

He never did get any thing out of the kennel accept the run around.

Point being is you can end up with a problem even if you pay big bucks to the greedy breeders.

Benny

[Mayfly]

It seems that some of you are coming down on LittleRiver....I don't understand how anyone was offended by what he said.

I originally asked Joe why? just out of curiosity..I consider him a friend and it was just a question.

It sometimes seems as though people can't have a conversation on these boards because people are too sensitive and paranoid.

There is validity to everything everyone has said here and whatever you want to do is ultimately your choice.

I like how Benny called Little River's post "Crap" when in fact he had a lot of advice to offer. He was not belittling anyone he was merely offering his OPINION and what I thought was great advice....ESPECIALLY for someone with a bitch.

Joe's biggest feat is finding the Stud. I know if I had my female bred I would be searching high and low for the proper mate and I would WELCOME all advice, constructive criticism and opinions.


Lighten up and welcome all.

[Mayfly]

One last thought.......

If we should really come down on someone for breeding it should be humans....

About 40% of the population has no business breeding!

[labs4me]

I'm going to chime in here... For what it's worth.

I found Little Rivers post fairly accurate. ?It may have been a little a little more to digest than some would like, but he gave good solid info for someone to think about before they choose to breed. ?If nothing else he showed how much info should go into a breeding.

With that said, as many know, I have bred labs for 20 years... I am getting closer by the year to getting out of it. ?The reason being? ?I can no longer produce puppies of quality and thought and get at least a small amount of profit for my work and risk. ?I plain cannot compete with those who choose to indisciminatley breed their dogs and charge $200-400. ?The simple fact remains that you can purchase a 'utility' dog for the same price of 20 years ago. ?Quality dogs back then were in the $500-700 range. ?Now the division between 'quality' and 'utility' is close to $1000. ?I am somewhere in-between which is no-man's land and not a great place to be. ?Simply put, those who put Bingo and Banjo together to get puppies to sell, will make money at $300 a pup X 10... but proper breeding costs much more. ?My vet bills alone on my last 2 litters were pushing $2400 by the time the pups went home. ?Unfortunately both times my females had different complications that were not run of the mill. ?By the time I paid the stud fees, travel, food etc. I really made little if any money. ?I am not complaining, I realize this when I go into each breeding that these factors may come into play and I am solely doing it to produce outstanding progeny, not as a side job... the unfortunate outcome is, I am having a harder time each and every breeding justifying it. ?I am now down to 1 breeding every third year or so... ?maybe less.

It is frustrating to see all the pups that are currently on the market. ?I bet 3 out of 4 litters should never have even been produced. ?I say this as they probably put little effort into the breeding. ?I begrudge no one from breeding their dogs, if they even just put in a minimum of effort into clearing the potential parents genetics and traits including all physical traits and standards. ?I agree the sole reason to breed dogs should be to produce pups of better quality than the the previous generation. ?This simple rule is not always followed, even by the 'pros'!

I am not afraid of others getting into breeding for the reduction in profits from my litters, I am OPPOSED to those breeding their dogs for no other reason than they want to breed their dog. ? Their is nothing sadder than a person who ends up with a pup that goes down from a genetic defect that could have been averted. ?I agree most guarantees are a joke for the simple fact that they are worded such that you must turn in your dog to have it destroyed before you can accept money back or a replacement pup. ?This simply isn't an option for most families. ?My guarantee offers that option (which would probably only be used on a severe defect) or another option, keep your dog as long as you like and when you are ready, you will receive a future pup at your discretion for 50% off. ?I have had to guarantee a few pups over the years and most people used this option. ?Unfortunately, no matter how pure you try to breed your dogs, things will show up. ?I have a female that has thrown 4 litters of pups and as far as I'm aware, 3 litters have no hip or elbow problems, but one litter had a pup that developed a mild case of dysplasia. ?The irony is, it is my vet's dog. ?The sire was a direct import from Scotland and even though he showed clear hips I couldn't trace the rest of the lines back. ?My female had 5 generations of cleared hips and 3+ of cleared eyes and elbows. ?Her sire and grandsire were used for the seeing eye program, she is more sound at 12 1/2, than my male field trial dog who is 10 1/2. ?I breed less and less back to field trial lines as I truly believe a lot of the problems with Labs do sprout from these dogs. ?Plain and simple, it IS about the money! ?Most of the breeders in the field trial game and to an extent hunt test game are in the breeding game for the money! ?There have been many occasions where a well known dog with a disorder has been unscrupulously bred. ?The events which unfold from there are sad. ?Because now 2 generations removed, Mr Smith and Mr Jones are throwing Bingo and Banjo together to 'line breed' their dogs that are out of this great field trial line... the results are not quality dogs going home to new owners. ?The process to come up with the proper breeding takes many months and potentially years, based on heat cycles, availability of studs, getting all your homework done, genetic testing, seasons etc. ?My process for selecting potential parents are in this order, 1)genetically sound, 2) physical attributes incl. proper size,build, looks and most importantly coat. ?Most field trial labs no longer have a proper coat. ?How often did a lab wear a neoprene vest 20 years ago? ?rarely. ?Most no longer have a dual coat which includes the downy hairs under their guard hairs. 3) Ability - this may or may not include titled dogs. ?There are other attributes such as tempermant and tractibility etc, but those dogs have been weeded out from consideration long before I'm narrowing down my search. ?Way too much emphasis is put on titles when producing and selling pups. ?It's an easier task to market the pups with these titles, but people have to understand that all that hot shot breeding will probably not give you the lab of your dreams! ?The flip side is that it is important to have titled dogs in the pedigree so you can show that the pups have been bred down form natural ability. ?It is a fine line and one I struggle with on every breeding. ?People want what labs are/were known for... an intelligent, loyal, CALM working companion. ?

This is getting off track and is becoming more about breeding labs than what the original post was about... but related none the same.

Joe I know little about pointers, but if you need any help or tips about whelping your pups or any non-breed specific questions, I'd be happy to share any knowledge that I have. ?It would be wise to line up a helper for when you are whelping a litter for the 1st time. ?

Back to your original question... Myself? ?I'd wait a couple years if you are only going to breed her once. ?I breed her around 3-4 years of age. ?Let her get some good hunting seasons in before she takes on motherhood. ?Then you have time to get your hips/elbows/eye evaluations done too. ?I also agree with selling pups on a limited registration. ?The pups are still eligible to be registered and can compete in tests etc. ?but their progeny can only be registered upon YOU lifting the 'limited' portion of their registration. ?I will do this upon proof of hips/elbows and eyes being cleared.

Good Luck!

Ken

[JohnWester]

About 40% of the population has no business breeding!

I think they were all at the poison concert at the state fair the other day.?


Seriously though... I went back through and re-read all the posts again.? And I see some editing of posts being done so I am not sure what was originally stated except for going on memory...

Little river offers up a lot of information.? I understand what he is talking about and if he were referring to someone who was starting a breeding kennel or business, I totally agree with him.? ?It may sound a little arrogant, like jigglestick said, but I don't think that was his intentions. (I hope)
Joe is looking at getting 1 litter of pups for his own reasons... not going into business here.
Also a good point

one point I forgot to make was that any breedings such as Joe is talking about, unless extensive research is done, should be registrations on a limited basis.
that means the pups could be registered if they choose, but if they choose to breed those dogs, they would not be able to register the litters, making them no more than utility purpose animals.

I think jigglestick had an excellent idea.? If little river had the time, I think an article (or series of articles) explaining the whole ins and outs of breeding and why things are done the way they are(good and bad) would be warmly welcomed here.? I would find it very interesting.? And I don't think you have anything to worry about little river, I don't think any of us are interested in starting a breeding business.?

[vickieschessies]

Little River and Labs4me just a little info. I too have been breeding 3 different breeds for 23yrs. Info is very important but strong opinions should just be toned down a tad. Human nature has a way of throwing up a defense when people say something they don't want to hear.  Be open to what all people have to say even the best beeders out there can learn by sitting back and TAKING IN ALL  thoughts.

[labs4me]

Info is very important but strong opinions should just be toned down a tad. Human nature has a way of throwing up a defense when people say something they don't want to hear.

? ? ? ? ?

Info shared on any subject or piece of life, may not always be what any of us want to hear.? It's what you do with it once you recieve it.?

I am far, far, far from knowing everything in the dog world... I am open to learning.? I tell my kids and my employees to try and learn one new thing each and every day.? I am sharing what I know works and what I see as repeated problems in the dog breeding world.? I am extending an invite to help Joe out in anyway I can.? I am trying to offer suggestions to help him make decisions if and when he breeds.? There is no condescending remarks geared towards Joe, in fact the opposite.? I am trying to help him understand some dynamics to breeding so he does not do "just another breeding"... but hopefullly produce some stellar pups.? I offer my apologies to Joe if I did.? If my remarks offend someone who pumps out puppies without regard or towards the betterment of their specific breed, I am sorry, but I offer them no remorse.

Good Luck!

Ken

[JohnWester]

Joe was so crushed... he just took his dog to get spayed.




I AM KIDDING! 
a lot of good stuff being discussed here.

[labs4me]

  hehehe

Good one!!!

Ken

[Benny]

Best advice now for this thread is to just egnor it!No one will be happy with any thing posted and it will just tumble down hill from here.

I won't come back to it now my self.

Benny

[Benny]

Well I calmed down some, and went back to review the over all posts.

I am sorry I jumped on you LR, it was a defensive strike because I was torn apart by some breeders on lab-retriever site for posting the same type of questions Joe asked.

After taking some time to read your post and understand where you were coming from, I was a to hasty to generalize you in with the rest of those "pro breeders" you as well dislike.

Please accept my apology and thanks for your information.


Benny

[DaveO]

I for one have talked to little river he relay knows his stuff about breeding and training.

I can understand his point on all of this and agree with him,,

I allso agree with jiggle to. Some people dont even have that kind of money in there truck.

My favorite hunting dog only cost me $50.00 My most expensive hunting dog cost $800 and had to be put down 14 months latter with a mentel disorder.

Its hard for a average person to get a new hunting buddy anymore as it gets very confusing and expensive..

One more thing: Welcome to our website little river...........I believe he is our newest prostaff

[little river]

Well, I was called earlier by one of the members here and told me to take a look at the site.

I wasn't in any realm trying to belittle someone or be arrogant. If you knew me you would know that is the opposite. I simply do not have the time to do much on the boards and when I do it is normally fast and to the point.

As you may have noticed, I have not had much time to post at all and Mayfly asked me to post a few times a week. I just can't find the time right now. I am sorry it is that way but I can't change anything right now.

I guess maybe it would help if I would have been here more so people could get to know me.

All I can do is give you an example of my personality.

I have managed several businesses over the years. I was managing a bank at one time and had fifty employees under me. Not under but working for me. Anyway, in a company meeting, with my boss in town and sitting in, I had one of my female employees tell me to "go back to my office and lay by my dish!" It was said in a way where everyone knew she was kidding and all I did was laugh with the rest of the department because it was a huge stress reliever for the group.

My boss asked me if I was going to deal with it after the meeting when we were talking privately. I told him no. It was a stress reliever and made everyone in a good mood for the rest of the day. We had improved that department many times over what it was before and the main reason were my employees were happy at work.

I am not bragging just trying to explain a little about me in case this should ever happen again because I won't respond to it. It is just not worth anyone's time or effort.

When I came on and talked with Tim, (Mayfly) he told me this stuff doesn't happen here. He knew before I even signed up for this site that I hadn't posted on boards for about eight years because of this.

I didn't come to this board for any other reason then business in the beginning. I had no intentions of posting here at all but it looked like a nice group and I thought I would try it being Mayfly asked me to do it.

Just for the record, I am not a breeder defending the prices of dogs. I could care less what people do and don't charge. That wasn't the point at all. What was the point is I simply do not have much time right now for anything other then work and my kids. Tim knows my situation as we have had to do business on the phone several times. I am sorry if it sounds abrasive, arrogant or whatever but I have to be fast and to the point. I have many people who ask questions every day privately and that is because I don't do anything publically anymore. There are new members here because I told them this was a nice board.

So what little time I have I try to do it quick. As far as breeding. I haven't bred or registered a litter in four years. I am going to get back into it in the next few years but that was not my intentions at all. When I bred my dogs they were bred twice, spayed and sold as finished gundogs. I couldn't stand the thought of them just being a brood dog their entire life.

To do that I had to become very efficient at what I did and to do that I had to learn as much as possible about genetics and breeding as quick as I could. I was fortunate enough to hook up with a breeder from Canada that has produced so many titled dogs over the years it makes the amount of field champions we have produced look like a fish pond. He literally put me twenty years ahead of where I would of been on my own and that was ten years ago. To this day we talk several times a week. Bounce our breedings off each other and we both let the other know anything new on genetics we learned and that is often because there is so much to learn it is ridiculous.

Because I have put so much time into learning how to breed and about genetics I try to give as much info on the topic as I can in one post. There are few really good breeders that will help. If you haven't noticed at other boards all the fighting going on. That is mostly due to the fact that there are breeders there causing all kinds of trouble and it is mainly with each other, LOL. It is crazy. They aren't there to help anyone, they are there to cause problems and act like a big shot.

That is not what I am about, if it was I would be here flapping my mouth all the time. Anyone can privately ask me a question and I always give them my honest answer. It may not be the one they want or right away unless they call or hit my private email because I can't drop in daily. I always give people my private email if they ask for it.

So I get to the point quick because of my time restraints which Mayfly can account for. I haven't even talked with him on this topic and probably won't. Another reason I get to the point is because you wouldn't believe all the info there is to learn about breeding if you truly want to know as much as you can learn to do the best breedings you can. I am still learning every day. Learning is one of the main reasons I came to the posts in the first place.

If there is a legitimate topic it is rare that I don't learn something from someone that has posted. Even if it is one little bit of info I want to know it.

Yes I am anal when it comes to my own breedings but I think that is the way it has to be to make better dogs. I don't go by the plan to try and make dogs as good as the ones I have. I want the pups to be better and to do that you need all the info on every topic and every dog you can get. This is one reason I had to let so many breedings go open because even in three or four months of research I wasn't happy with the amount of information I had on a specific male I wanted to breed to.

So, when Tim asked me to post and told me this stuff just doesn't happen here, and I see he tried to defuse what could of been a very heated topic which wouldn't of been because I wouldn't of even taken the time to respond again. I was happy to give it a go again.

I help people all the time and most of it is privately because things like this happen and I don't have the time or energy for it. I hadn't been on since I posted the last message. I can't hit the boards on a daily basis. I would like to with a good group and you guys are very nice but I just won't go this route. I don't take shots at people.

There is a member here that I see on dog boards all the time. Mostly I am on them to post an ad for dogs for sale for my boss.  I see her everywhere putting in her two cents and causing more trouble. It is one thing to disagree and that is great because everyone learns that way and it keeps people interested. But to take a shot is another.

When you drop in, put in your two negative cents, say nothing good or bad on the original topic and leave, why even make a post at all? By the way,

When I post something it has to be fast and to the point. I never take shots at people, there is no percentage in it.

When it comes to breeding dogs I have spent the better part of the last 20 years learning and reading, making mistakes and doing some things right. It took a long time to get to where I am now and I am not even using it as far as breeding goes right now. I will start again but I just haven't had the time so you see I was not defending anyone and their prices. If you would notice on the original post I said these good breeders around the country sit on these boards and criticize people for not doing their breedings right and ruining the lab as a breed. Yet they are the same people that refuse to help anyone out and teach them something when it comes to breeding. It takes a long time to learn genetics. I actually got lucky and hooked up with a very good breeder from Canada who wouldn't post on any dog board to save his life.

He won't go through the aggravation when someone disagrees with something you said and takes shots. He doesn't mind people disagreeing either because he may learn something. Disagree with me, fight with me or whatever you want to do but don't take a shot at me when you don't know who I am or what I am about. You can simply choose to use the information or not. Why can't it be that simple?

I think if you look through my post you will see that there isn't one shot taken at anyone. I was simply trying to tell him to be careful because you can run into a lot of problems. I am sure anyone who asks a question on breeding is doing so because they want all the feedback they can get. That is why I took the time to give an answer.

Anyway, if I came across as arrogant to the other hundreds that read this board I apologize.

I am not that way and don't want to be interpreted as such. I love dogs, I train about 15 a day, I deal with a lot of people each day and it is great. When I have the time I like to help and I don't like problems because it isn't fun anymore.

If I drop in again I will try and make it so people don't think I am like that but when it comes to breeding I don't really know how else to post things other then to give the info I know. I could of wrote a book the other day on the topic but I didn't. I told what I could to the group in the amount of time I had.

So, I hope this doesn't happen again and if it does please try and understand I am trying my best to help someone. I am not there to brag or show off. I don't have the time. I just wanted to be a part of a group that I could have fun with. There are actually a few people from this board that I have invited to come to South Dakota pheasant hunting. I hope they all can make it.

Take care and good luck with your dogs. If I can help I will. Just remember I am painfully honest when it comes to breeding or training. I don't do it to be mean, spiteful or anything else. I am just giving my honest opinion.

When I do have pups I have sold young dogs for 3500 and I have also given dogs of that caliber away because I knew dad couldn't afford the dog and the little kid would be crushed. My dad did the same thing when I was a teenager and I could never understand it until I became a father myself several years ago. It changes your perspective on life. Anyway, I seen him do it many times so I have done is several as well and sometimes it makes you feel better then getting the cash.

People think I am nuts sometimes. I have paid and sold dogs for more then the little truck I drive around is worth. That kind of stuff doesn't matter to me. Breeding and training on the other hand I take very serious, don't ask me why, I can't explain. LOL

Good training all.

Little River

[Spinach]

I honestly did not read this thread until late this afternoon, iv'e been too busy and just never had the chance to read it until today.

After reading the entire thread and then going over it one more time, I can only say that I appreciate how everyone has handled them selves in such a personal matter. At times it seemed that it was going to get out of hand, but then the next response was informational and settled it back down enough to make this more of a positive experience.

I've witnessed and have been involved in 2 other threads like this on different sites, both times the subject was the same.

For whatever reasons , it always turned ugly from the start, it's just one of those subjects that everyone involved feels they need to express there opinions.

My view on this matter is.... MetroJoe asked a very simple question  and wanted some feedback on breeding his Setter, he may or may not like some of the responses from everyone, but this is exactly what he needed from the more experienced members to help him make the correct decision on his own.

From everything I read from everyone that has commented, it seems unanimous that a person looking to breed there dog should do there homework and make the best decision possible for there personal reasons.

I am one of the few who actually viewed Little Rivers comments as informational and not arrogant, I just didn't perceive his comments to be negative.

Actually most everyone that has been involved has had something good to say, Jiggle, Labs, Benny, Vickie and Little River. I kind of get the feeling that Benny took the time to re read this again and found little Rivers comments a lot less arrogant too. It takes a big person to admit there mistakes in a public forum.

I also want to thank Little River for not taking everything said too personal and coming back today and giving us another informational post.

Just remember that the internet sometimes is very hard to expess our true feelings and sometimes what we say is not how we want it to be perceived.

Not that it matters any, but my opinion on the original question is that as long as MetroJoe is aware of everything involved, the costs, time and risks involved in attempting a quality breeding, i say go for it and don't let anyone stop you. Thats 90% more than most "back yard breeders" are doing today. It's relieving to know that MetroJoe cares enough to ask for feedback in such a touchy subject.

[Mayfly]

Breeding dogs should be like breeding Race Horses.......

[jigglestick]

so we still havent answered the question, what do we do about the average hunter who cant afford an expensive "race horse" dog?

what about your dog mayfly? mixed breed? wouldn't trade her for the world?
according to the comments and oppinions in this thread that dog shouldn't exist.

there IS a need for utility dogs.

that is how you "get to the point"

[Mayfly]

I'm watching a horse movie..pretty interesting. They spent some time on the breeding of horses and this thread popped up in my mind.

Hey, I got my dog for free. She was a complete accident. They wanted to get rid of the dogs so I took her for. I would do it again if I had the chance.

#1 priority for an dog is a good home....as long as they can get that than what the heck.