CWD in MN

[nontypicalhunter]

Anyone else here that the DNR might have a positive test result for CWD in a wild deer? I heard it a couple of times today and they are apparently awaiting the results from the labs in Iowa. If that the case it would be the first in a wild animal here in MN.

[MTCOMMER]

They found it in 1 deer out of 524 tested in South West MN.  Sounds like it isnt causing too much of a stir, but I could be a big deal if it speads..... 

[jkcmj]

The location was SE MN near Pine Island I believe.  They stopped by a friends house and discussed their strategy on what they plan to do.  He has an Elk Farm, so will be under quarantine now for selling or moving any live animals off his farm.  This is within 2.5 miles of the Elk farm along hwy 52 where they tested a couple of Elk positive awhile back.  Not sure how it gets spread, but they have been leaving the gates open on the large Pens where they killed the positive elk earlier,  and wild deer have been coming and going from that area to some degree for awhile now.

[AJDodgerf]

According to the WI DNR CWD is typically spread through saliva/close contact of infected animals.  Bait piles are listed as a breeding ground for transmittal as the animals are eating food that can be tainted by infected animals and thusly spread teh disease.  With that being said, if the large pen areas have not been "cleaned" of CWD traces/contaminates it is possible that the animals are transmitting the disease from those feeding stations in the pen area(s).  I am surprised that the DNR would allow them to leave the gates open and allow wild animals into the area.

[deadeye]

I know this will once again start up the debate on game farmes.  I have weighted in on this a number of times and my stance hasn't changed.  Up untill this case, every CWD case has been in a captive herd.  These animals are transported in and out of the various areas, spreading the desease.  This case, if it proves to be CWD, was most certainly caused by the deseased elk herd located a mile or two away.  It doesn't matter how high or seemingly secure the fence is, the animals will intermix with wild animals.

[jkcmj]

I believe they were supposed to keep the pen closed for 5 years, but are developing portions of the property, so made an agreement to scrape the first few inches of top soil into large piles and keep that fenced...  Of course for 5 years they will be working on that....

I know of another 300 acres that was fenced in Southern Iowa.  Dnr made them test all the animals they killed, then same rule on the fence.  Of course they guy bulldozed the fence within a couple months.  I don't think there is much teeth to what the DNR can do besides taking away a game farm liscence?  Which neither of the parties wanted anyway when they bought the properties.

That being said, I have no issue with game farms, and in know way would I suggest they are necessarily the source of the spread of this without confirmed evidence which is unlikely to ever be found.  I believe it is a naturally occuring disease, which is of little concern to humans.  The bigger threat is the DNR's educated reaction to something they understand little better than I do.

[Mayfly]

At least a dozen captive-elk farms are within 10 miles of the spot near the town of Pine Island in Olmsted County where the suspect doe was felled Nov. 28.

It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out. Also they have found deer inside the fences of the closed farm where CWD was present.

[deadeye]

jkcmj, I agree with you they may never be able to prove beyond any doubt the infection came from the infected elk herd, however, their statments indicated they do indeed believe it came from there.  This statement pretty much confirms their thoughts on the matter.  I believe they are not makining a DIRECT connection, to prevent the backlash on the existing 600 game farms.

"Michelle Carstensen, the DNR’s wildlife health program leader, said the prevalence of CWD is likely low. “We sampled 524 deer this past hunting season in the Pine Island area and found only one that appears to have CWD,” said Carstensen. She added that the DNR did not find CWD in a total of 2,685 samples taken throughout southeastern Minnesota in 2009 or 500 samples taken in 2008 along the Wisconsin border, from Houston County northward to St. Croix State Park in Pine County.

The DNR has been on the lookout for CWD since 2002, when it was first detected at a domestic elk farm in central Minnesota. In recent years it has put additional focus on southeastern Minnesota. That’s because the disease was detected in 2008 at a domestic elk farm near Pine Island, and because southeastern Minnesota abuts Wisconsin which has had CWD for many years. The domestic elk herd at Pine Island was eliminated after a seven-year-old female was found to have CWD. Three other elk were found to have CWD during the removal effort."

[Mayfly]

jkcmj, I agree with you they may never be able to prove beyond any doubt the infection came from the infected elk herd, however, their statments indicated they do indeed believe it came from there.  This statement pretty much confirms their thoughts on the matter.  I believe they are not makining a DIRECT connection, to prevent the backlash on the existing 600 game farms.

"Michelle Carstensen, the DNR’s wildlife health program leader, said the prevalence of CWD is likely low. “We sampled 524 deer this past hunting season in the Pine Island area and found only one that appears to have CWD,” said Carstensen. She added that the DNR did not find CWD in a total of 2,685 samples taken throughout southeastern Minnesota in 2009 or 500 samples taken in 2008 along the Wisconsin border, from Houston County northward to St. Croix State Park in Pine County.

The DNR has been on the lookout for CWD since 2002, when it was first detected at a domestic elk farm in central Minnesota. In recent years it has put additional focus on southeastern Minnesota. That’s because the disease was detected in 2008 at a domestic elk farm near Pine Island, and because southeastern Minnesota abuts Wisconsin which has had CWD for many years. The domestic elk herd at Pine Island was eliminated after a seven-year-old female was found to have CWD. Three other elk were found to have CWD during the removal effort."

What else could of happened....do they suspect that it just parachuted in one day?? Hmmm... lets land in SE Minnesota today.


And JKCMJ.... you are dead on!

The bigger threat is the DNR's educated reaction to something they understand little better than I do

.

[Go Big Red!]

Here we go again... more  being stirred up.  It's here, it's in Wis, it's out west and we cannot escape it.  I say more testing and research and figure out how to put this disease to rest.

[nontypicalhunter]

Where it did or didn't come from is  not the issiue. I have long believed that there were cases of it in the wild here for quite sometime. How can almost every surrounding state have it and not MN. I'm no expert but I'm sure the disease was around long before our time. What I worry about is the forth comming results of this. How many millions of dollars will be spent pursueing this? Will they ban recreational feeding of deer? If so, will that spread to food plot planting? How many diseases are spread thru urine and fecal matter, deer feeding in a food plot stick their faces right down in the plants to eat, right? I guess what I'm getting at is how far do you think the DNR would take the issiue.

[Auggie]

   CWD is a non issue. Period. We have it. We have had it for years. It affects a smaller amount of the population than a disease such as rabies. All the studies in the world are not going to make it disappear. Just more media hype and pissed away money by the DNR. Just like the TB debacle in northern MN. The money could be put to much better use such as habitat or a whole host of other REAL issues.
    And for all of the farmed cervid opponents, realize all of the information you have about CWD is because of the research done from animals on farms. The only reason it has been more prevalent on farmed animals is because they are all monitored for it in a controlled environment. Sure it spreads quicker because of confinement. But it is no different than any other farm raised animal. Period. Doing away with farmed cervids is like saying we should stop raising cattle because of TB or quit raising chickens and turkeys because of the avian flu. Studies have been done already on population declines. The animals on farms can reproduce faster than the disease can take them out. And this is in a closed herd in the worst possible scenario. Wild animals roam free and don't have the confinement issue to basically guarantee that they will contract the disease like farmed animals in these test areas.
    Sure there is a good chance the positive deer caught it from the enclosed area. But it is just as good a chance that a wild animal brought it to the captive herd to begin with. Whether you like it or not it is fact. Chicken or the egg?

[deadeye]

nontypicalhunter,
I disagree, where it came from is an issue.  Prior to this case there were three confirmed cases of CWD in Minnesota.  All there were in captive cervid herds.  I don't believe it existed in the wild for some time without being detected.  The people that control the place where the infected elk herd lived were paid on the condition that they keep the area fenced to keep all wild deer out.  They did not perform on contract and allowed gates to be left open etc. I suggest they be required to pay back the money they were given for the herd because they did not fullfill the agreement.

Auggie,
Why do you suggest we have had CWD for years?  Again, other than captive herds, it has never been detected in Minnesota.  I don't think we should just roll over and say it's here let take it's own course. 
 

[22lex]

The facts are I live in SEMN and this has happened 15 miles from where I live and hunt.

It's too hard to ignore the facts that a deer was killed that positively checked out for CWD in an area that had numerous cervid farms, particularly an area that had a farm check out as well for three or more positive test results from their elk. A wild deer bringing it into the enclosure and affecting the elk.

I don't know all the facts on this, but it isn't rocket science to think that they (the penned up animals) had this disease in the first place. As I remember, the gestation for this disease without showing signs is like 4 years.

[Mayfly]

   CWD is a non issue.

I don't get what you are saying?? This is a huge issue! Maybe the disease is not an issue but the way the DNR handles it IS AN ISSUE!

[Go Big Red!]

   CWD is a non issue.

I don't get what you are saying?? This is a huge issue! Maybe the disease is not an issue but the way the DNR handles it IS AN ISSUE!

That's a good point.

I know Wis DNR prohibits moving deer from out of the CWD area.  I'll post the regs when I find them and we'll go from there.

[nontypicalhunter]

   CWD is a non issue.

I don't get what you are saying?? This is a huge issue! Maybe the disease is not an issue but the way the DNR handles it IS AN ISSUE!

That's my whole concern, HOW WILL THE DNR HANDLE IT. I forsee, millions of $$$ wasted chasing something they will NEVER get control of. I see the cervid farmers being punished (directly and indirectly) because like some previous comments have stated "where did it come from? Hmmmm must be from the "farms", could have NEVER already been there in the wild. If I am correct, ALL testing was done by hunters who voluntarily donated the head of the animal to be tested. Now if it was manditorythat all animals harvested were tests (which would be a huge waste of wildlife funding and tax payers dollars) I guarantee there would be an overwelming number of CWD case in the wild.


And to say that it was never in the wild and was solely the fault of cervid farming is just plain crazy.

[deadeye]

I'm not a scientist or number guy, but, if you use the DNR's statement "the DNR did not find CWD in a total of 2,685 samples taken throughout southeastern Minnesota in 2009 or 500 samples taken in 2008 ", how can you say "I guarantee there would be an overwelming number of CWD case in the wild.'?  My logic (and maybe it's flawed) would say statistically there are no CWD cases in the wild. 
Just so we know your side, montypicalhunter, what relationship with cervid farming do you have?
Thanks,

[22lex]

Nontypical, I have two friends that raise elk, and I know what they have been through the last 8 years or so, and I do not want to see them have to fold up their operations on a false presumption. I buy meat from them also, so that would be a loss of valuable meat we consume yearly.

From all the literature I can dig up about this, it seems as though pen raised animals (deer, sheep, elk) have been the carriers in most cases dating back to the 60's in Colorado. From there I can only speculate (along with the DNR) on how this garbage spread, or if it is a prevalent disease in wild animals that affects a very small portion of the population. There isn't one speck of evidence stating it is a wild disease, or that it starts with cervid farming besides all the confirmed cases in this state (which is pen raised animals).

There are many people down here that take stake in their hunting lands, if they were to find a piled up deer that looked shady and died from something other than old age or a shotgun hole in them they would let the DNR know. If you read the DNR website after 32,000 test samples done throughout the state....only one came back as a positive. With that said, I say there is little chance of finding it all over the state.

I just hope the DNR doesn't proceed as the WI DNR does. I would rather see a laid back approach up to next years deer hunting season, and concentrate the CWD testers near the area where the affected deer was taken.

[nontypicalhunter]

22lex, what I was getting at was, I DO NOT want to any cervid farmers to be punished for case of CWD found in the wild.

As far as my "relationship" to cervid farming, Me and my family are in the process of starting a farm ourselves. If I came across as blaming the farms/farmers for this, I apologize for not being more clear.

deadeye. 2,685 tests out of over 250,000 animals take in '09 and 500 tested in '08. There is no way to test every animal taken, I understand that. But to think that CWD is not in the wild herd of MN  at all is not just nuts. If you would be kind enough to explain you thoughts on how the surrounding states have cases of it and MN does not, I would like to hear them.

[Auggie]

     Those of you that think CWD is not in the wild population and hasn't been for some time are crazy. We have been surrounded by documented cases for several years and the disease is documented back over 40 years. Not to mention the years it wasn't documented.
      Do a little simple math here guys. Since CWD testing has been conducted in MN by the DNR LESS than 1% of the total harvest has been tested. That means less than a 1/2% of the TOTAL deer population (harvested and those left running in the woods)has been tested. That is like pissing into the wind. The needle in the haystack you might say. How can you expect a random sample of less than 1/2% to show if we have a disease in the population or not. This year they just happened to come across that needle. The reason it is found on the farms is because the tests are coming from a controlled sample. Every needle is tested you might say. 100% of all animals died or slaughtered over 16 months of age are tested. Pretty easy to see why it is showing up on farmed animals and not the wild population. I don't happen to know the total number of farmed cervids in the state since testing was required. But I would bet the farm that less than 1% of the total farmed population since mandatory testing was implemented has tested positive for it as well.
       MNO you are correct. How the DNR handles it is an issue. The disease itself is not an issue. The media machine just chooses to make it one.

       It will run its course deadeye whether we piss away millions of dollars on it or not. So I say why throw that money away at something we have absolutely zero control over when it can be put to much better use elsewhere. I can't name one place it has had an effect on cervid populations to the point the herds have dropped so significantly they are unable to be hunted. I would venture to guess nobody else here can either.

[AJDodgerf]

CWD Year DNR                         #Sampled #    Analyzed     Positive for CWD
2010 CWD Management Zone        6872              6807               198
2010 Remainder of Wisconsin         434                 369                 0
 
CWD Prevalence in Wisconsin
Since 2002, acknowledging expected yearly fluctuations, there has been an overall increasing trend in prevalence in all sex and age classes. Over the past eight years of DNR testing in the core area, prevalence in adult males has risen from about 10 percent to over 12 percent and in adult females from about 4 percent to about 6 percent. Prevalence in yearling males has increased from about 2 percent to about 4 percent and in yearling females from 2 percent to nearly 6 percent since 2002. We continue to find that disease prevalence is higher in males than females and higher in adults than yearlings. We will continue to do CWD surveillance and data analyses to more fully understand the patterns of increase and spread of CWD in WI.


These are the latest numbers from the state of WI...The entire CWD "outbreak" originated around animals that were tested at a cervid farm.  Even with an attempt to eradicate deer in teh area the numbers are still growing...this is a HUGE issue for MN to deal with swiftly so as not to have to try to play catch up after it is too late and then becomes even more costly.  This is simply not something that you will want to just let it "run it's course". 
 But hey, MN has never dne anything else right, why learn from it's neighbor and react properly?

And as far as it not being transferable to humans...that is still up for debate...all one has to do is look at the similarities to Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease.  The similarities are astounding...it is easier to change the name of the disease when it reaches humans than to worry about scaring people away from a billion dollar industry.

[Auggie]

   AJ you are just furthering my point with those numbers. 198 out of 6807 tested animals is less than 3%. Now what is the total number of positives of the complete population in the core area?
Living and harvested. You can bet it is less than 3%. Then try and compare 369 tested samples out of the rest of the population in WI with the core area. It is like comparing apples and oranges. The only similarity is they are both fruit. Have the deer densities in the core area dropped off significantly for any reason other than over harvest to test said animals that showed a less than 3% positive rate? Have they dropped off anywhere else in WI significantly? Or any other state as far as that goes. CWD is going to run its course. Period. There is not one thing we can do about it. Have all the testing and eradication efforts done a bit of good in WI or MN? Have we come any closer to stopping the spread of the disease because of it? The media machine has scared people so bad they are willing to look the other way while our tax dollars are pissed away on something we have no control over.
    Here is a little more information on CJD for those of you unfamiliar with it. It was first described in the early part of the 20th century . Hmm, But CWD has only been around 40 + years right? Really. Not a chance. CJD affects 1 in 1,000,000 people. 250 people a year here in the US. These are minuscule numbers at best. You have a better chance of getting hit by a stray bullet on Friday night in downtown Minneapolis than you do of ever contracting CJD. CWD is also similar to scraipies in Sheep that has been known of for hundreds of years. What about MAD Cow and some of the other ungulate disease that have an affect on the brain? Again just another example of the media machine blowing things out of proportion.

[deadeye]

nontypicalhunter,
"If you would be kind enough to explain you thoughts on how the surrounding states have cases of it and MN does not, I would like to hear them." 
First off, MN does have CWD.  I believe 4 locations have had farmed animals test positive for CWD.   If AJDodgerf is correct, the WI outbreak also centered around a cervid farm.

Auggie,
If CWD is as wide spread in MN as you suggest, I believe it would have been discovered sooner.  A recently infected animal does not show any symptoms.  If the general herd was infected years ago, many sick, and dying animals would have been discovered by now.  Between nature watchers, deer feeders, farmers, trail cameras and 500,000 hunters, don't you think someone would have seen or found a sick animal by now?

   

[Auggie]

deadeye,
     Your missing my whole point. I never said it is widespread in MN. It is not wide spread anyplace. Including farmed animals. Such a small percentage of the population in any known CWD area nationwide is affected I see it as non issue. I simply said it is here and has been for who knows how long. But how can you tell if it is here when such a small portion of the population of deer is ever tested?? You think nobody has ever seen or found sick or dead deer? It happens every year. It has been happening for years. Only thing was nobody had anything to blame it on until CWD came around. Nobody wants to address the real numbers. They just want someone to blame for an issue that is blown out of proportion by the media. And in your case you want to blame the farmer who raises cervids. Maybe we should blame the cattle farmers for TB in northern MN. Same thing isn't it?

[Go Big Red!]

Here's some information, from the 2010 Regs booklet, on where the CWD is concentrated.

CWD Prevalence in Wisconsin
Wisconsin has intensively monitored chronic wasting disease (CWD) for eight years.
Between 2002 and May 2010, we have tested nearly 160,000 free-ranging deer, of
which 1,353 have tested positive. All of the positive cases have been found within
the current CWD Management Zone (CWD-MZ). Wisconsin has two separate cores
of disease infection, one in the southwest part of the state, one in the southeast. The
southeast CWD outbreak is contiguous with a CWD area in northern Illinois where
293 CWD positive deer have been found since 2002 (see map below).

Transporting deer within/out of the CWD zone.

Deer Carcass Transportation Regulations in the United States and Canada
Research indicates that intact carcasses and certain parts of cervids (deer, elk, and
moose) infected with CWD may be a potential source of disease spread. The infective
agent (prion) is concentrated in the brain, spinal cord, and lymph nodes. The intent
of the following regulations is to prevent the importation of brain, spinal cord, and
lymphoid tissue in order to minimize the risk of CWD transmission and contamination
from these potential sources.
It is illegal to:
• Transport whole wild deer carcasses and certain parts of those carcasses from the
CWD Management Zone (CWD-MZ) to areas outside of the CWD-MZ, UNLESS
these parts are being transported to adjacent deer management units (see map next
page). This restriction applies to any deer management unit ending in –CWD; such
as 77C-CWD or 54B-CWD.
• Transport carcasses or certain parts of wild cervids (deer, elk, and moose) from
areas within other states or provinces that have CWD into Wisconsin. Hunters
transporting whole carcasses or restricted parts of those cervids into Wisconsin
from other states or countries must possess and exhibit to wardens, upon request,
documentation of what state or country and game management unit or county
the carcass was harvested in. It is recommended that hunters not transport any
carcasses or restricted parts of wild cervids from anywhere in those states and
provinces that have known cases of CWD. This is a simple way to be sure you are
following the rule and to prevent the movement from areas in those states or provinces
that may have CWD but where it has not yet been identified.
The only parts of wild deer harvested in the CWD-MZ that may be transported
beyond those deer management units adjacent to the CWD-MZ or into Wisconsin
from areas of other states and provinces that have CWD are:
• Meat that is cut and wrapped (either commercially or privately)
• Quarters or other portions of meat to which no part of the spinal column is attached
• Meat that has been deboned
• Hides with no heads attached
• Finished taxidermy heads
• Antlers
• Clean skull plates with no lymphoid or brain tissue attached
• Clean skulls with no lymphoid or brain tissue attached
• Upper canine teeth (also known as buglers, whistlers, or ivories)

[Auggie]

    Thanks for the post Big Red. Again those numbers show less than 1% of all tested animals proved to have the disease. Now you must add in the total population for a true perspective of how many animals actually have the disease. The less than 1% will drop even further. Can any of you now see why I feel this not an issue.
     These regulations are not a bad thing and several states have them. If I remember correctly MN also had them at one point until to many lockers, meat processors and us taxidermists complained. Along with the restrictions placed on farmed animal movement we are doing exactly what can be done to slow the progression of the disease to areas where it has not been found even if in all likely hood it is present in other areas whether you want to admit it or not. The regulations are not hard to deal with. But spending millions on major testing and the eradication of perfectly healthy deer to get less than 1% of the targeted population is ludicrous. And blaming cervid operations is as well.

[deadeye]

You are right, Auggie, CWD will not wipe out the wild deer herd.  The study below is from Utah where they indicated 15% of wild deer in the test area are infected.
I'm not looking to blame anyone, however if we are going to attempt to keep it our of the state (and I think we should) we do need to know how it gets here so action can be taken to prevent spreading the disease.

"Surveys have also found CWD in free-ranging deer and/or elk in parts of Colorado, Wyoming, South Dakota, Nebraska, New Mexico, Wisconsin, New York, West Virginia, the Canadian provinces of Saskatchewan and Alberta, and most recently in Kansas and Illinois. It has also been found in captive deer and/or elk in ten states and two Canadian provinces. In the endemic areas of Wyoming, Colorado, and Nebraska, it is found in less than one percent of wild elk and in one percent to 15 percent of wild deer populations. In 2005, Colorado confirmed that a bull moose tested positive for CWD, making it the first time CWD has been found in a wild moose."

[Mayfly]

And in your case you want to blame the farmer who raises cervids.

Auggie - Are you suggesting that the recent finding of CWD in the Pine Island area was not related to the infected area and farm?

[kenhuntin]

crazy talk:
 To deny involvement of a fish farm for bighead carp infestations
 To deny involvement of eurasion milfoil infestation on a fish aquarium petshop
 To deny involvement of buckthorn invasion on a garden nursery