How can we grow bigger bucks???

[naturalistmn]

Minnesota is a melting pot for habitat.   We've got a little bit of everything, from farmland, grassland, to the big woods.   We are surrounded by BIG producing states.   With that being said, how can we create more of an overall age class in our deer?   There are a lot of suggestions and possibilities.   Earn a buck, antler point restrictions, and so on.   Our buck to doe ratio is so far off I think this is a great starting point.   I feel they should also make the current antler point restriction for the entire slug zones.   First and far most, we've got to let the little ones walk.   You always hear the saying,"If I don't shoot it my neighbors will."   Well, if you shoot it he has zero chance, letting him walk at least ensures him some chance.   It has to start somewhere.   We make up everyone, and one person can make a difference.   Anyone got some good suggestions???

www.mnoutdoorsman.com/eyeswideopen
www.naturalistmn.blogspot.com



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[MTCOMMER]

I would be all in favor for the 'earn a buck' tag in MN - I would prefer to hunt more weekends and have the chance at a second deer.  Plus, its the same thrill taking a nice doe as it is taking a buck (well, the buck is a little better, but the thrill and heart pumping is comparable).
-- The size of bucks all depends on YOUR personal land, and has little to do with your neighbors (unless you are hunting a small 40acre parcel). 
But as for our land, our new neighbors practice QDM and the others have hunted less, and we have seen an increase in the nice bucks, much better than the last 15 years. 

First mount taken in 2009, and the bow buck taken in 2010.  Both are some of the largest we have seen/harvested on our property.  We also know that there are more nice ones around.   

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[naturalistmn]

Great imput!   And love the photos, pretty deer!   I really have to agree.   I've been rather fond of the earn a buck like Wisconsin uses.   Helps with the ratio factor and age class.   Two birds one stone.   I think for most, more so in the southern half of the state, people only have smaller tracks to hunt, such as 40's.   This is really where the neighbor thing comes into play.   I'm glad to hear you and surrounding landowners are taking matters into your own hands.   Hats off my fellow outdoorsman!   We need more to join in!!!

[whiteoakbuck]

all great ideas but we also have to keep in mind there are lots of ppl starting out hunting or younger kids that are just out there to hunt and antler size does not matter to them so we can't frown upon all those who shoot smaller bucks there are plenty of deer i would shoot the most people would pass on and there are also some that i pass on that others would love you shoot the biggest problem i have is the early antlerless season messes alot of the bow season up they say there are to many deer but we as bowhunters should be stacking deer up like crazy if thats the case rite? again thease are all JMO but great post i can't wait to read what others think 

[Go Big Red!]

I honesty say I don't let much walk by.  I enjoy the meat too much.  Sorry but that's what I grew up with and that's what I believe. 

[naturalistmn]

Thanks for the feedback.   Love it.   These are great examples.   Whiteoakbuck, you mentioned the new and young outdoorsman.   And Big Red, you stated that you grew up not passing much.   This is perfect.   I feel we need to start these new and young people out with passing young deer.   If they grow up shooting young deer they more than likely will stay that way, as Big Red mentioned.   This is also just my opinion, but I think the deer deserve to reach maturity.   It teaches good species management amoung other things as well.   As far as gaining experience, shoot the does.   If meat is what you're after, there is nothing wrong with filling your tag with a doe instead of a small buck.   It just makes more sense.   You can't eat the antlers so why not let the little ones walk and help with the ratio issue.   

[beeker]

well if you want to compare us to other states first I think it would be a good starting point to compare the data from each state. check the harvest reports and compare numbers to ensure that it truly isn't just a case of the grass is greener in wisconsin. hunting techniques and traditions vary across the state lines. in wisconsin neighbors get together and drive sections of land inevitably pushing all the deer around so more deer get seen and taken. in SD/ND I know guys who don't own a tree stand and shoot nice deer every year. I think MN has just as many big deer as these states. heck look at the wall of shame and the record books. MN is represented.

my personal hunting style.. I wouldn't ask a kid to pass on any buck, if it's their first buck. other than that I pass on small ones.. mostly because I can smoke a doe when I want some meat

[nontypicalhunter]

Sorry to say it's not going to happen unless you have alot of land or all your neighbors are on board with a management plan.It would be great to go out and have nice shooter bucks come by all the time, but many people don't have the time or the resources to just pass on a deer. They have to take a the first shot that presents it's self. Also you need to have the genitics for the animal to grow bigger head gear, and alot of places don't supply what the animal needs to get to that point. I will agree 100% that passing on the smaller ones will produce bigger deer, that's a given. A few years back an older gentelman I worked with (he was from WI) was telling me how him and his neighbors were extremely excited for the upcomming season. When I asked him why so excited for this particular season, he explained that between the group of them they had quite a bit of land (all neighboring farms) and they all agreed to NOT shoot any bucks for 4 years, does only. This being the 5th year they were all going to take a buck. Every one of them ended up with a 150" or better animal.  That just goes to show if EVERYONE works together and is on the same page you will get the results your looking for. BUT at the same time I would never deny a young hunter or ANY hunter for that matter the chance to harvest an animal legally just to give myself a chance at a trophy animal.

[HUNTER2]

I have 157 acres and that isnt enough to grow big bucks. I put out minerals and do food plots and also feed them in the winter. I pass on all the bucks that are smaller then 8 points. I finaly have my rellys waiting for a bigger one. The problem is, not everyone can shoot a doe unless they are bow hunting. You have to get a doe permit here to shoot one with the gun. We also have neibors that, if it's brown it's down. I had 2 real nice ones on the land this last year and they both wandered off the land and got shot by the neighbors. I also like the meat, but I figure I can always eat cow. I will continue to pass on the smaller ones. I think you are right on the taking of more does.

[Mayfly]

Sorry to say it's not going to happen unless you have alot of land or all your neighbors are on board with a management plan.

Sorry to single you out but that is the type of thinking that is so incredibly wrong! I know multiple 80 acre farms surrounded by neighbors that have the "brown is down" mentality and they shoot awesome deer every year.

It has to start with the hunters in this state and it has to start somewhere.

[naturalistmn]

I have hunted in both Wisconsin and North Dakota.   We could learn something from each other.   States can not copy cat each other, instead, learn from positive management practices.   Minnesota's average age class of bucks taken is 1 1/2 years old.   Personally, I think we can do better than that.   Yes, we need to sacrific, but the result would largely out weigh the sacrific.  

I'm all about young and new outdoorsman.   They have just as much fun shooting a doe as they do a small buck.   What is the sense in shooting a small buck just for the sake of shooting a buck?   We do it with fish all the time, why not deer?   They need to learn the value of being selective to ensure a healthy future.   After all, the future is for them.  

We need to break from the "it wont work" thing.   If 3 out of 5 landowners participated you would definitely see more results than if 0 out of 5 landowners participated.   There is no issue in this world where everyone will be on board.   Saying everyone has to, only implies nothing will ever work.   You wouldn't abandon your goals just because you're the only one with them, would you?   You would be suprised at what you could do with the ground you already hunt.   I have done this myself on very small tracts and have seen results.

Our seasons can not meet the needs of everyone.   The person that has no time to shoot a mature deer and feels the need to take the first shot present should not dictate our herd management.   The main objective is to do what's best for the herd and what has the most positive impact.  

You also can not "stock pile" bucks.   The buck dispersal rate is huge.   A mature bucks home range is estimated to be around 500 acres and has been reported to travel over 30 miles during the breeding season.   You are simply trying to get deer to frequent your property more often.   Just by passing small bucks and shooting does for a few years you will start to see results.   I feel so great after giving a young animal a chance.   If you shoot him, he has a zero chance.

I believe that most people when afield would like to start seeing more of an age class in our herd.   Hard work is always rewarded.   Minnesota has all the potential and the tools to grow bigger bucks.   It has to begin with us, the outdoorsman, one person can make a difference.

www.mnoutdoorsman.com/eyeswideopen

[MTCOMMER]

I do wish MN did a better job of allowing hunters to take does.  In our zone (277) which I think is the same zone as HUNTER2, we must apply for a doe permit - which I was lucky enough to get this year.  However, I couldnt use it because I shot a buck with my bow - so that doe permit went to waste, but when I was hunting I saw dozens of does.  I would have liked to take one, because I feel the property/area has too many.
It also happened that my uncle shot a nice 8 pointer, and wasnt able to use the doe permit.
I wish they still had the ALL SEASON license here in MN, so you can have 2 tags during all 3 seasons (Bow, Shotgun, and Smokepole)

-- I would be open for an 'earn a buck' for all over 16.  That way, with new hunters, they have the option to shoot anything.... IDK, just an idea.

[beeker]

"Minnesota's average age class of bucks taken is 1 1/2 years old".. where is this number coming from? I would have to question the acuracy of this as minnesota dnr doesn't require a tooth at registration. at best it would be a volunteer sampling and no one with a mature buck is letting the dnr hack into it for a tooth.

I question this because I've played with the numbers the DNR has on it's website at times and cannot duplicate their own "facts" from the numbers they publish. (I work in data and just like to question the source so I can qualify the data)

[beeker]

found some numbers on the mn dnr site... these are registered bucks #'s.
firearm #'s
2007 = 97528
2008 = 85646
2009 = 83820
2010 (not provided yet)

from these numbers we can say that registered bucks in this state have declined over the past 2 years.

however youth license sales
firearms#'s
2007=  49242
2008= 50397
2009=56678

youth hunters have increased


here is a link to this report

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/recreation/hunting/deer/2009_harvest.pdf


   i just find the data interesting..

[naturalistmn]

Zone 3 has been the experiment area for new QDM in Minnesota.   This is a great source of data and should be read.   The results speak for themselves.   This will help with the 1 1/2 year old average.   If that still isn't enough data, next season go to a locker and tell me how many 1 1/2 year olds you see for every 4 1/2 year olds you see.

http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/outdoor_activities/hunting/deer/regchanges/2010_zone3_recs.pdf

[whiteoakbuck]

I honesty say I don't let much walk by.  I enjoy the meat too much.  Sorry but that's what I grew up with and that's what I believe. 

[whiteoakbuck]

Sorry to say it's not going to happen unless you have alot of land or all your neighbors are on board with a management plan.It would be great to go out and have nice shooter bucks come by all the time, but many people don't have the time or the resources to just pass on a deer. They have to take a the first shot that presents it's self. Also you need to have the genitics for the animal to grow bigger head gear, and alot of places don't supply what the animal needs to get to that point. I will agree 100% that passing on the smaller ones will produce bigger deer, that's a given. A few years back an older gentelman I worked with (he was from WI) was telling me how him and his neighbors were extremely excited for the upcomming season. When I asked him why so excited for this particular season, he explained that between the group of them they had quite a bit of land (all neighboring farms) and they all agreed to NOT shoot any bucks for 4 years, does only. This being the 5th year they were all going to take a buck. Every one of them ended up with a 150" or better animal.  That just goes to show if EVERYONE works together and is on the same page you will get the results your looking for. BUT at the same time I would never deny a young hunter or ANY hunter for that matter the chance to harvest an animal legally just to give myself a chance at a trophy animal.

[beeker]

thanks for the data I'll give it a read.  I could go to the locker but in all honesty how many guys are dropping off a 4 1/2 year old buck at the locker to be processed? and how many guys can really judge the age of a buck? pictures have been tossed up on line here and you get answers from 1 1/2 to 3 1/2.. the truth is the average hunter doesn't have the training to make an accurate determination based on educated guessing over his hunting career and not having validation of that estimate being accurate or not.

I looked this up on boone and crocket as to the record entries also.. MN is 2nd all time in the book

1. IOWA 615
2. MINNESOTA 608
3. WISCONSIN 589
4. ILLINOIS 552
5. TEXAS 316
6. MISSOURI 285
7. KENTUCKY 279
8. KANSAS 255
9. OHIO 235
10. MICHIGAN 155

[Mayfly]

Sorry to say it's not going to happen unless you have alot of land or all your neighbors are on board with a management plan.It would be great to go out and have nice shooter bucks come by all the time, but many people don't have the time or the resources to just pass on a deer. They have to take a the first shot that presents it's self. Also you need to have the genitics for the animal to grow bigger head gear, and alot of places don't supply what the animal needs to get to that point. I will agree 100% that passing on the smaller ones will produce bigger deer, that's a given. A few years back an older gentelman I worked with (he was from WI) was telling me how him and his neighbors were extremely excited for the upcomming season. When I asked him why so excited for this particular season, he explained that between the group of them they had quite a bit of land (all neighboring farms) and they all agreed to NOT shoot any bucks for 4 years, does only. This being the 5th year they were all going to take a buck. Every one of them ended up with a 150" or better animal.  That just goes to show if EVERYONE works together and is on the same page you will get the results your looking for. BUT at the same time I would never deny a young hunter or ANY hunter for that matter the chance to harvest an animal legally just to give myself a chance at a trophy animal.

How can you give that a thumbs up?????

That first paragraph:

Sorry to say it's not going to happen unless you have alot of land or all your neighbors are on board with a management plan.It would be great to go out and have nice shooter bucks come by all the time, but many people don't have the time or the resources to just pass on a deer. They have to take a the first shot that presents it's self. Also you need to have the genitics for the animal to grow bigger head gear, and alot of places don't supply what the animal needs to get to that point. I will agree 100% that passing on the smaller ones will produce bigger deer, that's a given.

That right there is what is wrong with MN deer hunters. Its that mentality that is so so so so wrong. I don't care if you have 20 acres, you have to start somewhere! The vast majority of deer hunters in MN will never own more that 80 acres let alone own their own land. So a minority has to start this?? No, the masses need to change the way we think. I wish I could invite you all to my buddies land up near Sandstone. Its an 80 acre deer paradise. Every year they do a little for the deer and after 10 years that turns into a lot. They have changed the game in their area. You should see the monsters that are now wintering there and showing up on trail cams every year. They just keep getting bigger. Their party rule is that if you shoot a buck you have to hang him on the wall so if you want to shoot a spike or a small basket rack than its going to be an expensive one. Here is their wall for the last 5 years. As you can see in the early years they were still shooting some smaller deer but the higher on the wall you get the better deer that they are getting. This past year they passed everything except for some does. There were some monsters out there (trail cam pics) but do to a new job and a few other things they did not hunt as much but that is ok because next year they wil be that much bigger. The second deer pic you see here is a buck that was shot during the 2009 season. He was estimated to be 3 1/2 and measured 154 inches. Great deer!

Keep in mind when they start this plan it was started by the kids, they wanted to bigger deer and a better quality hunt. The dad and the older brother thought like some of the comments here and didn't really believe in it until they started seeing it with their own two eyes. 10 years ago they did not believe that big antlered deer existed. They just figured genetics and food sources were to blame for the smaller racked deer. I should do a story on this property so you can hear the whole story. Its a great story of success. Its fun listening to the family talk about it. It has to start somewhere!



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[FireRanger]

I honesty say I don't let much walk by.  I enjoy the meat too much.  Sorry but that's what I grew up with and that's what I believe. 

 

Sorry but the food on the table means a lot more to me and the family then a rack on the wall. Sure it would be nice to see/shoot a big buck but at the end of my one weekend of hunting for deer, I need some table fare to show for it. Just my opinion.

[Go Big Red!]

As far as gaining experience, shoot the does.   If meat is what you're after, there is nothing wrong with filling your tag with a doe instead of a small buck.   It just makes more sense.   You can't eat the antlers so why not let the little ones walk and help with the ratio issue.  

True and I agree.  However, Wis screwed up their herd numbers over the past few years and my zone went from a 2 antlerless bonus tags per day over the 9 day season to ZERO this past fall.  

[Mayfly]

I honesty say I don't let much walk by.  I enjoy the meat too much.  Sorry but that's what I grew up with and that's what I believe. 

 

Sorry but the food on the table means a lot more to me and the family then a rack on the wall. Sure it would be nice to see/shoot a big buck but at the end of my one weekend of hunting for deer, I need some table fare to show for it. Just my opinion.

This is the biggest farse argument that I hear...

I just want the meat.

So if you had a choice what would you shoot.... a 12 point non-typical buck that scores 173 inches, a nice healthy doe, a yearling or a small 8 point. They were all standing together and your best shot was at the doe. She was standing 35 yards broadside and you had your weapon of choice in hand. The small buck and the yearling all were pretty good shots but the big buck was a little farther out. He was broadside at 75 yards. You are confident up to 150 yards. Do you take the sure thing at 35 yards or do you want that once in a lifetime trophy... oh wait, you don't consider him a trophy because you are out there just for the meat and you don't look at deer that way, of course you'll take the slam dunk because you don't want to miss the opportunity at some meat.

And if you you do run into a situation where you end up with a nice buck you surely wouldn't need a picture or parade him around and show him off and no way would he end up on the wall because you do not view deer that way. You simply hunt for the meat so antlers or no antlers its all the same.

[Go Big Red!]

I honesty say I don't let much walk by.  I enjoy the meat too much.  Sorry but that's what I grew up with and that's what I believe.  

 

Sorry but the food on the table means a lot more to me and the family then a rack on the wall. Sure it would be nice to see/shoot a big buck but at the end of my one weekend of hunting for deer, I need some table fare to show for it. Just my opinion.

This is the biggest farse argument that I hear...

I just want the meat.

So if you had a choice what would you shoot.... a 12 point non-typical buck that scores 173 inches, a nice healthy doe, a yearling or a small 8 point. They were all standing together and your best shot was at the doe. She was standing 35 yards broadside and you had your weapon of choice in hand. The small buck and the yearling all were pretty good shots but the big buck was a little farther out. He was broadside at 75 yards. You are confident up to 150 yards. Do you take the sure thing at 35 yards or do you want that once in a lifetime trophy... oh wait, you don't consider him a trophy because you are out there just for the meat and you don't look at deer that way, of course you'll take the slam dunk because you don't want to miss the opportunity at some meat.

And if you you do run into a situation where you end up with a nice buck you surely wouldn't need a picture or parade him around and show him off and no way would he end up on the wall because you do not view deer that way. You simply hunt for the meat so antlers or no antlers its all the same.

I would shoot that doe without question and without hesitating. And of the bucks I have shot, nothing bigger than a 5 pt., I honestly don't have a single picture of any; just the racks in a box in the garage. 

I'm not trying to piss anyone off, I'm stating what I know and what I was taught.  I remember stories from my dad and his father when they deer hunted.  One of the stories was about how my great uncle Eddie built a fire and shot 13 deer while sitting around it.  Now do I believe 13? No, but they hunted for the meat to feed the 5 kids.  Money wasn't great back then when grandma stayed home to raise the kids and grandpa worked in the iron ore mines 6 days a week.  I guess it's our tradition, yet I'm sure people will disagree and that's okay by me. I don't feel any less of a hunter because of that.  And I will probably teach my kids the same things I learned when I first started hunting with my dad and we shoot for meat. 

[Mayfly]

I honesty say I don't let much walk by.  I enjoy the meat too much.  Sorry but that's what I grew up with and that's what I believe. 

 

Sorry but the food on the table means a lot more to me and the family then a rack on the wall. Sure it would be nice to see/shoot a big buck but at the end of my one weekend of hunting for deer, I need some table fare to show for it. Just my opinion.

This is the biggest farse argument that I hear...

I just want the meat.

So if you had a choice what would you shoot.... a 12 point non-typical buck that scores 173 inches, a nice healthy doe, a yearling or a small 8 point. They were all standing together and your best shot was at the doe. She was standing 35 yards broadside and you had your weapon of choice in hand. The small buck and the yearling all were pretty good shots but the big buck was a little farther out. He was broadside at 75 yards. You are confident up to 150 yards. Do you take the sure thing at 35 yards or do you want that once in a lifetime trophy... oh wait, you don't consider him a trophy because you are out there just for the meat and you don't look at deer that way, of course you'll take the slam dunk because you don't want to miss the opportunity at some meat.

And if you you do run into a situation where you end up with a nice buck you surely wouldn't need a picture or parade him around and show him off and no way would he end up on the wall because you do not view deer that way. You simply hunt for the meat so antlers or no antlers its all the same.

I would shoot that doe without question and without hesitating. And of the bucks I have shot, nothing bigger than a 5 pt., I honestly don't have a single picture of any; just the racks in a box in the garage.

Then I respect your opinion.  A majority of guys that claim what you have said here are lying... and if they aren't willing to admit it publicly they know inside that they are lying.

[Go Big Red!]

I appreciate that.  At the same time, on my grandparents graves, what I have typed is the truth and I have zero regrets about that. 

We're never going to come to an agreement of what is right or wrong.  Beyond that, two things still hold true: #1. We need to get more youngsters outdoors and #2. We're all hunters.

[Mayfly]

We're never going to come to an agreement of what is right or wrong.  Beyond that, two things still hold true: #1. We need to get more youngsters outdoors and #2. We're all hunters.

Right on 

[Go Big Red!]

We're never going to come to an agreement of what is right or wrong.  Beyond that, two things still hold true: #1. We need to get more youngsters outdoors and #2. We're all hunters.

Right on 

And after looking at our profile photos, we've got 3 chances to get this right!!!!

[Mayfly]

Amen to that brother

[naturalistmn]

Times have changed and so have we.   Hunting is now a great sport not a way of survival.   I do respect what has been said here, but what happens when you have an unsucessful year?   Your family does not starve or go hungry.   One or two deer don't last all that long either, espicially with a family.   I am great friends with a family that owns a meat shop.   Hunters bring in bucks they want mounted and are caped.   Most people don't know how to properly cape a deer and do you know how many more pounds of meat are on a 3 1/2 plus year old versus a 1 1/2 year old!

It's funny how everyone seems to say "Yeah, it would be nice to shoot a big buck, BUT..."   Not too many people are willing to sacrific a year or two of lower kills.   Mainly because they haven't seen the results first hand.   If they did they would be on board, for sure!   Education is everything.   Do some research, look at some data, and talk to people experienced with QDM.   It's all there and we can do it, so lets do it.

It is not a matter of meat vs. trophy.   It's about better management.   Implementing QDM doesn't mean your freezers will be empty.   Like our children, young deer are the future of deer hunting.   Shooting imature animals year after year is bad practice.   We are not teaching our children to keep small fish are we?   I sure hope not.   With QDM in place the quality of hunting is greatly increased.   Simply put, it's a proven fact.

[naturalistmn]

Nicely said.   

This is a matter of taking care of our resources in the best way to ensure a quality future for us and our quarry.   This is not bow hunters vs. firearms hunters or meat vs. trophy.   We are all deer hunters that simply choose different weapons.   The young deserve to grow.   And after all, they were here first.