Please, New Deer Management in MN

[rssheik29]

I'm new to the board today and hate to come on here ranting in a negative way BUT...

I live near the SD border and have a lot of friends that are SD residents.  My question is this:  Will the MN DNR swallow their pride and just adopt the same management techniques as SD has implemented for decades.  The quality of deer between the two states is rediculous.  I drive 15 minutes and in just that small amount of time can see a significant difference in the quality/quantity of deer.  In my opinion, our DNR is governed by insurance companies far more than by biologists.  Our area was estimated last year to have 13-15 deer/sq. mile.  After speaking with a local WL Biologist, their estimates along with a survey of local hunters felt that should have been reduced by atleast 8 if not 10.  How can this state properly manage something that they have no idea how many license are actually filled.  Sure they know how many permits were purchased year to year but there are deer that are not registered due to unethical hunters that dont care and just expect numbers will always be up. 

A simple method of awarding slug/rifle permits based on current population estimates and previous year success is a far better method of managing deer populations.  Do not allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to go buy a buck license and have to apply for a doe permit.  This state is the exact opposite of SD, ND and a lot of other states that have far better deer.  Definately a quantity type of management versus a quality type. 

I know some of you will most likely tell me to go 15 miles and hunt there then but I dont think there should be any reason to have to.  And I also am aware that in the northern part of this beloved state the habitat is like a whole different state than our southern portion but there again the opportunity to adequately manage the amount of permits based on deer numbers enables the DNR to manage both areas effectively!  I know in my area I am not alone with this thought but hopefully some of you others will also chime in on some ideas and it would be great if someone with the right kind of power would read these ideas and get something done.

Thanks for listening to my rant!

[Outdoors Junkie]

First off, welcome to MNO rssheik 29!     Secondly, I live in Spearfish, SD and agree with you.  Nice post. 

[rssheik29]

Yeah, hope it wasnt too obvious just what kind of weekend I had slug hunting.  I spend about 3 days a week in the tree bow hunting and when anyone puts that much time into something and gets very little in return it gets pretty frustrating to say the least.  Consider yourself a lucky hunter, not only SD but Spearfish is a beautiful area and the skies the limit when it comes to rack size!!!

[Realtree]

Well said rssheik29, well said !!!   happy2.gif

And  to MNOutdoorsman.com !

[gveire]

  I would like to see more management put in place a draw system is nice other than the years you don't draw but quality deer are so nice to see.  longer hunt seasons could be better its just a 2 day to kill everything Spikes, fawns are fair game BS i don't think anyone needs meat that bad.  just to spend time with you friends and family in the outdoors is good hunting  fudd.gif

[rssheik29]

I dont want to get too far off on this management technique that will never happen but one other thing that could be taken into consideration to allow everyone to carry a gun is this:  Apply as a/the group you plan to hunt with and have a lottery system draw tags for your party.  If you do not get over something like 40% tage for your party, then you are not obligated to buy a license.  If so then everybody has to buy a license with maybe the people that did not get drawn only having to pay half the normal price.  The entire party can "party hunt" to fill the available tags.   That way everyone can still hunt and for those who travel far distances (out-state), they can plan far enough ahead of time to make it work out still.

This would still keep direct track of the maximum amount of deer that are taken year to year.   :; <---------I love the crap!

[gveire]

they do that in Nevada here you apply as a Party but you only use that as a Draw after you tag your deer your done you can walk or scout whatever but you only can shoot one deer but you use rifle so range is on your side with the slug even with the new slugs 100 yard shoot is about as far as you get...
 :stupid:

[rssheik29]

well, party hunting is party hunting but I think we as a state need to look a little more at controlling the amount of deer permitted to harvest.  They can allow anyone to hunt but if your party of 10 was only awarded 5 tags then the DNR would know exactly the maximum number of deer taken year to year.  Unfortunately they would have to take probably another 5% bump for poachers.  ::50cal::

[tripnchip]

I hate disagreeing but I just don't unerstand the benifit of a state wide draw system other then limiting the no. of hunters and opening more land to them. I understand there may be a lack of deer in parts of the state but in others the herd is to big. Realy  who ever thought there would have to be intown deer hunts in the cities. There are even small towns up here tht are thinking about having hunt in the cittie limits. If you are talking just the area's were the herd is down it might be somthing to look at, but have it done in such a way that the dnr did not have to go back to St. Pual  to change it if the the herd came up in them areas.
I think the dnr's biggest problem is the pplitics that dripels down from St. Pual.
 I'm just throwing out food for thought here not trying to start anything.
 Counting points may work in places but when you hunt in the part of the state where having the time to count points is almost impossible, well maybe not a good idea.
 Another thought on that is what we are after is quality deer. You may not have the problem down south but up here you could have 4-5 year old  bucks running around  breeding that will never have anything more then a 8-10 point basket rack and nobody shoots because thye never see it long enough or good enough to count the points. The 10 I got this year is a good example, for a older 10 pointer his rack is rather small I think. Score wise I have a younger 8 poiteer that I am sure will score higher. Who and when do we take the lesser bucks out of the herd so they are not breeding.Is the next step have to age a deer that is sneaking thrught the brush.
  Some times I think what is realy needed is another nasty winter and this time let nature bring back the herd instead of all the feeding and food plots. lol I know a nasty winter would just make things worse for you rssheik29.
  By the way rssheik29, welcome to the site, i'm sure you will enjoy it as there are a lot of good people here.

[gveire]

your numbers wont change just the DNR will have more control over what areas get hunt more and as far as partys of 10 only able to shoot 5 deer not going to happen too many people shooting up the hills going to kill more than 5 at times this is all BS anyway they need to do something but wont and hunters just want to kill anything spikes or whatever they cant get old a 5 year old deer is hard to come by quilty deer are even harder :;

[rssheik29]

Yeah tripnchip, I know there are drastic changes throughout the state when it comes to numbers.  That becomes very apparent when you look at how many management tags we can buy when hunting up north.  In our area, the numbers are down and there is little cover around now with all the crops out so hunters push whatever trees, sloughs, or CRP they can get their hand on which puts the deer on the run and vulnerable to getting shot.  Im not kidding tripnchip when I tell you I bet I could count the number of 4+ year old deer in a 2 mile radius on one hand.  The bucks just dont get the opportunity to live much beyond 3 years of age without being continuously stalked.  Although nothing wil get done about this I like to chat about this topic and vent sometimes.  So thanks for taking part!

[tripnchip]

29 we all have to vent at times, I guess I have seen meny chages up here that were done acording to what the people living further south wanted and some of the ideas floating around now just don't fit this country at all. Heck I'd probley never shoot a deer if I had to stop to count points or judge the age. Most times you just don't get to see a deer that long up or in the open long enough to do those things. At least not the bucks that are a couple years old.

[deadeye]

It can be done.  I know they have a large tract of land but it still is impressive!
http://www.startribune.com/531/story/1554300.html

[btoa]

Thanks deadeye. My hunting party has been doing this for 3 years now and it is starting to pay off.

[jigglestick]

I personally would be for a point restriction. I fear though that a lot of deer would be taken then and not registered when found out up close to not have the required number of points.

rssheik, your original statement has me somewhat confused.
I guess a lot of what you say is purely speculative. to say you live on the border and drive accross and see way more deer, has me wondering how come the deer do not cross the border?

the different regions in this state differ probably as much as a state can differ from one end to the other. from the granite outcroppings of the forest land in the north east to the seemingly endless flatlands of central and south west minnesota, I don't understand how you can make a blanket statement about deer management in this state.

there are a lot more deer right now than not that many years ago really.
up nort here, we need to have a good supply of does. we have found out the hard way that we can have just a couple bad winters in a row and wipe our deer herd out pretty bad. what has that been 10-12 years now/ look how we have rebounded. can you imagine what it would have been like if our deer heard back then was a smaller heard of more "quality bucks". the bad winters would have been even more devastating. we might still not have been back on track.

I dont know about the rest of you, but deer hunting to me is like breathing. if you want to tell me that some years I can hunt and some years I can't, you can kiss my BFA
there will be no lottery system for hunting privelidges as long as I am alive.

[btoa]

I don't think a lottery is the right way to go. I hunt over in Wisconsin and they have different zones that have earn a buck where you have to shoot a doe in order to get a buck tag and the seems to be working to manage the herd and let the bucks grow a little bigger and you see more of them. I think if you want to see more and bigger bucks stop giving everybody a buck tag.

[Mayfly]

What a complicated subject. I do not completely agree with the way things are being managed now but remember this.....No matter what they do there will always be a number of people that disagree and complain. So no mnatter what they do this thread will always be active somewhere!

My main issue is really becasue I am a bow hunter and just when the rut kicks into high gear I have to wear orange and compete with 1000's of rifles in the woods.

[CampY-Buttercup]

Check out what a group of people did in my area.  www.hillviewmanagement.com  you can also go to www.startribune.com/anderson/story/1554300.html to see their largest bucks from this year and how it started.  They have been doing this for only 5yrs and its really paying off.

[GRIZ]

Well this topic has as many view points as people. I agree something should be done. A point restriction I think would be a good place to start but how to enforce it would be sorta tough. I believe it's pennsylvania that has something like that and they allow you to keep a deer when a mistake is accidently made but with a $25 dollar fine. The way I under stand it if a person does mistakenly shoot a buck that's too small he gets the fine and is limited to does for the next 3 yrs, or something like that.

I think one of the worst things they could have done was that all season lic and then hand out multiple tags with it. In my area a person is still in the lottery area but a few miles to the north it's not. I would be willing to bet many does were shot and claimed to have been taken a few miles further north. The all season lic makes it to easy for hunters to cheat. When the DNR uses the registration records it's so inaccurate from this cheating they have no clue as to what is really going on. I have an all season lic but I think personlly it's the worst thing they could do for deer from a management perspective. I don't think they will eliminate the lic either because of, how do I say this $$$$$$$$$. THIS STATE is too dollar orientated to manage wildlife.

[deadeye]

Griz,
I don't exactly follow you logic that the "all season" license holders are cheating.  It is just as easy for a "firearm" license holder to cheat as it is for an "all season" hunter. 
My only license gripe is having a seperate muzzle loader season.  Most modern muzzle loaders are not much different than a single shot rifle.  The only difference is scopes aren't allowed.  Of couse, this probably means more wounded deer.   Several years ago I went out during muzzle loader season to do some work on my property.  After hearing 6 shots comming from what I though was my property, I went to investigate.  I found the three hunters doing the shooting.  They were all on my property, two using my stands and a third driving deer through the property.  Because there was some snow, I was able to verify that three of the shots were complete misses.   I don't know about the other three but they didn't get any deer.   

[GRIZ]

Well is what I mean is with the all season lic you get 3 tags. People who are hunting in lottery areas will shoot a doe and once the tag is on and it's in the back of the truck it's a legal deer if they claim it was taken in a different area. It goes on all the time and if you think it's more complicated than that your kidding yourself. In order to be caught they would have to be caught in the act. People can still get the camp meat and still wait for the trophy. They must register it for a different area of course which is why I mentioned the statistics for deer shot in a particular area are way off. It's almost become acceptable, go to a place where hunters gather and they will even openly talk about doing it know it can't be proven. I would guess around here 60% of hunters with all season lic do it or at least claim to.

[rssheik29]

I don't think a lottery is the right way to go. I hunt over in Wisconsin and they have different zones that have earn a buck where you have to shoot a doe in order to get a buck tag and the seems to be working to manage the herd and let the bucks grow a little bigger and you see more of them. I think if you want to see more and bigger bucks stop giving everybody a buck tag.

I agree!  The only thing I ever want this state to do is make individuals apply for buck tags.  Now, I understand (as stated several times in this thread) the state differs drastically throughout the zones.  That is how they can manage deer differently throught the state.  In our area (sw MN), applying for buck tags would benefit the age of the heard.  Would also increase the number of bucks by controlling the amount shot.  I never recommended or wished they would impliment a minimum point law.  That is WAY to tough to determine outside of bow hunting.  Would never work around here and by the way it sounds, it wouldnt work up north either.  That came out of some folks around the Canby area that were legitamitely concerned about young bucks having a chance to grow.  I commend their concern but did not agree with their method.  Like others have posted, this will be an ongoing issue and if the law is changed it will never make everyone happy.  I just get tired of hunting great land and not seeing the same old buck year after year until he becomes a shooter.

[deadeye]

rssheik29,
I feel your frustraiton and pain with this subject.  Fortunatly a number of us own enough land to make a difference with the age of the bucks we harvest.   I've been working on the neighbors and have had some success.  It is still frustraiting because I know of 6 1.5 year old bucks taken in the area.  Five of these had 5 or more points. (We took two that were wounded by neighbors).  We also took two very respectable 8 points that were only 2.5 years old.   

[GRIZ]

I have agreed with the apply for a buck permit for a number of yrs. To me it makes sense as both the trophy hunters and the "camp meat" hunters would be happy. People who want some good eats for the table want a doe anyhow and by limiting the number of buck tags people would be less likely to waste it on a fork or little basket rack. Now Another thing I don't really care for is these short w/e seasons of 2-4 days. With a buck permit system ya got to give a hunter a little time to persue his trophy. If he only has a couple days he's gonna take the first thing with horns that comes by.

[jigglestick]

I think that would work as far as seeing bigger racks, but you have to remember, this state is numbers driven. people want to see deer. when they are out hunting, they want to see lots of deer. horns or no horns, they seem to measure their success on whether they saw anything or not.
it really helps get the young hunters fired up too. my nephew for example, sat out maybe five or six times this year, saw nothing. he was pretty much done for the year, bored crapless, couldn't care less about deer hunting anymore.
then on the last day, we brought him to a friends place to make some drives. we put my nephew and my brother on stand.
they had three come by behind them. the kid got a shot, missed.
then the three came out on the power lines. the kid shot, missed again, the dad shot, smoked a doe.
that kid is now pumped!
he can hardly wait for next season, and the state will gladly accept the fee for his deer license

[GRIZ]

That is a good point stick. A few other regs such as the tresspassing laws out in dakotas make the whole thing different. Working out in the dakotas as much as I do I learn a few things about the way they hunt. It's a whole different deal out there.

[TNT]

Hey Griz,
don't want to get into a pissing match here, but if you think that the all season makes it to easy to cheat with the zones, i hear ya, it happens no matter what with boundries,or zones, or quotas, hunters will sit on one side of the road and leave an animal that can't be taken and then it crosses the road and they watch the neighbor pop it. that is frustrating, but it is the rule, just hate to see ya point the finger at all season, in general.
so would i be right to assume that in "all" your trapping years, if you ever caught an otter or fisher the day before legal season or one day after, you called the CO and gave it up for a mere pelting fee, or just kept it and claimed it during the season?  don't answer that.
food for thought.
the states way is not perfect no matter what season or zone we are in, but they try to do their best with the state as a whole,  our thoughts and ideas differ more than alot compared to the wildlife biologists that try to keep our game and fish at nice levels state wide, let's just hope that their knowledge and training will keep us at good levels for years to come.
 well enough rambling on here,
break a leg, or at least just get one in a leg hold, or a body hold.
ciao.

[GRIZ]

No offense taken TNT

Yea I know I am not a big fan of the way things are done with the DNR. It goes along ways back and not that the biologists are idiots but the information they get is all messed up. I'm not going to go into detail about it but believe the people making the decisions should be the ones gathering the information.

By the way you don't get even a mere pelting fee, I know that.