Need some training help

[Tami]

I have been training my yellow lab, he is now 6 months old, in the fall for grouse, hes a super retriever and mouth to hand for birds. I didn't have to FF him it is something he did all on his own, he will sit there for as long as it takes with out dropping the bird. He trails great, and he points. He sits, stays, heels and the whole lot.. Super smart for his age.
But now hes been growling and hackles raised when i touch him while hes eating.. I been taking away his food and not giving it back, I have done the roll over and get in his face with no, I also been hand feeding him, and putting his food on the floor. I can put my hands in his food bowl , play with his food but the min i pet him he growls. I can take anything away from him no problem..

He now has started barking and jumping up on people something hes never done before. So if anyone can help me with the growling part, and point me in the right direction on a ecollar for the barking and jumping it would be helpful
 
thanks Tami

[Super Star!]

You need to show him who is boss, he is testing you (kinda like little kids will do). have you seen the show "Dog Whisperer" (sp)        I had this problem with my dog.. what i did was when someone would come i would put her on a leash and make her sit next to me. then i would let her go twords the person but if she jumped i had her on the leash and back to sitting next to me she was. and if she was real bad it was time out in her crate. as far as the eating thing simple dont touch him when he eats... lol i dont know what to tell you on that one..

[JackpineRob]

Your pup is a HE dog, and right about now the male thing starts showing up.  As Super Star said, its a dominance issue, and you need to get a handle on this quickly before it escalates.

You've already identified the growl when petting thing, so set it up, prepare yourself, and as soon as the first sign of a growl happens you need to roll him, raise your voice but good, and not let him get up until you're out of breath. 

When you're done, put the food dish up where he can't reach reach it and ignore him for a bit.  Put the food dish back, pet him again (fully prepared to roll him and holler some more), and repeat as necessary.

If it were me, I would continue to reinforce the thing for a couple of weeks, making sure you're petting him when he eats - not constantly, but moving around and getting your hand on him any time you choose.

The jumping is unacceptable behavior.  What I have done is to use a friend or family member who understands what is about to happen, and let the dog do his thing.  If your helper is a dog person, they do the correction - simple knee to the chest and and a "no".  If needed, you follow up.

A rolled up newspaper is a great tool - the noise is impressive to the dog, but the paper itself doesn't hurt 'em.  Just don't overdo things - use it only when needed, and its preferable to set up the situation so you're ready and waiting to make the correction.

Another thing you'll probably see soon - if you haven't already - is him grabbing yours or someone elses hand in his mouth.  Its a common dominance thing for retrievers, and while it may be alarming for someone who's not ready, is pretty harmless.  Roll him and let him know you don't approve.  It will diminish within a few weeks.

Many years ago, I had a young chocolate lab (6 mos.) on a portage up off the Echo Trail, and we were on our way back from his first major duck expedition.  Things had gone fairly well, and then we ran into a couple of hikers on the last portage....  The pup was going through some of the same dominance issues you describe, and upon seeing the couple, he charged up and grabbed the woman's glove - gently - but grabbed it nonetheless.

I come around the corner, see my pup with a strange woman's hand in his mouth, the guy was probably getting ready to shoot the pup, when I hit the whistle.  The dog sits.  He's still got he gloved hand, but sits.  The woman says "what do I do?"

"Take your free hand, grab his ear and give a yank, and then yell "NO" and chase him"

God bless that woman, she did exactly what I asked her to do.  The ear yank got the pup's attention - big time - she yelled NO and chased him.  He rolled on his back, then crawled up to her, came to heel and kept nudging her leg.

I swear, that pup would have gone home with her after that!

They mean no harm at this stage - but if you don't catch the dominance issues and deal with them quickly, they can become a real problem later.  Putting the pup away when company comes only puts the issue off - and harder to solve later.  Avoiding touching him when he's eating only reinforces a bad behavior.

Give a few more specifics about the barking thing - when is he doing, what is happening when it starts.  Usually if you analyze the situation you can set up a correction.

They're a lot of fun Northerngal - but a lot of work goes into making them good citizens and family members.

[Tami]

I do everything you have said.
This has been going on now for almost 2 months with the petting thing and growling. No Super star i cant let him get away with the growling, that leads to other things, if a child did that and got bit it would be my fault. Growling over this leads and will lead to other things if not corrected.
I have done the roll over, yelling even smacking him on his back end. It just gets worst. I have taken his food away like you said, at first it was a few mins , now its he doesn't get fed till the next day. I will not let him get away with growling while me petting him over his food. That just leads to more trouble. I have asked so many people, i run my own forum as well and posted this a lot around the forums, everyone keeps telling me to do the things i am already doing.. So this is why i was asking one last time. Maybe just maybe theres a new idea out here.
I want to thank both of you for your posts, i like hearing others view on things, i am by no means perfect and i do need help along the way.

Tami

[thunderpout]

Northerngal, is he kennel trained?  Jackpine is right on with it being a dominance issue... he needs to know who is the "pack leader"... The one I always used, though on younger dogs/puppies, was when they pushed the who is the boss button, I would grab em, make em submit(get over em, pin em down) and growl somthing nasty and make sure they know you mean buisness.  Never had to repeat it much, but then I have only had setters, a softer breed.  I also use the kennel for the time out, but Im sure you know of the kennel training thing...does he have other dogs/pets that interfere at eating time where he has had to protect his food?  It can be learned behaviour.... I wish ya luck, If ya cant fix it, I'd definatly get some professional advise, while he's still young and "moldable".      -thunderpout

[Tami]

Yes he has a crate and he goes there alot when doing this... no other animals.. the mom died with c-section, was raised with bottles. i got him at 7 weeks.
I know all the right things to do for training, i do everything that was said for 2 months now. i haven't gave in.. Hunter just don't get it no matter what i do..ecollar is all i can do now..He submits when on his back and me in his face, then does it again the next day..
I am the boss with everything else but that, and i wont have him growling like this. Pikebay ranger is going to borrow his e collar , we will see them..
thanks for posting

The sire is CH Cold Drake out of Goldberrys.. not any problem there on that side
The dam is out of Von Blue  nothing there..
none of the other 7 do this...

It will get nipped in the arse, i wont let this slide
thanks for posting
Ng

[huntr42]

well Northerngal I think you are on the right path,try to picture yourself in a pack for a minute and think of what the dominate male or female would do with a pup growling over food roll it yes,growl terrible at it yes,also show him your teeth I know it may appear silly to show your fangs but it has worked wonders with some pups,Im a sticker for PACK rules,my shorthair babe must sometime think Im nuts but she wouldnt growl or offer to bite if her life depended on it(and it might if she were to bite or even growl at one of my grandkids)next time he does this after you have him on his back grab the loose fur on either side of his neck and put your face close to his (not too close where he could nip) and show your teeth and growl loudly while shaking his neck somewhat sharply remember you are imitating a adult dog having him by the throat,I cant say enough the need to stop this behaviour now while hes a pup
        let me know how he turns out
                   

[Tami]

I did ask this in another forum, cause i really have not got a big response when i first posted this.. A friend of here and other forums responded to my post, and what he saids makes a lot of since to me , so i would like to repost his post.
I think many know Labs4me. very respected man  in my book.
I think after reading this many will look at ti in a different way, i just don't know what way tho..I have been doing basic work before dinner as well.

1st off, the advise given so far has been good. Definitely nip it in the bud and when it does happen, an instant correction is needed.

With that said, I will add these comments. In every post relating to dominance, it is generally said that you have to show you are 'Alpha' in a your 'pack'... I say this is all B.S. started by some doggie feel - good psychiatrist. There are definite dominance levels needed to be established within the dog - human bond, but for many reasons I do not even begin to buy into the 'pack' thinking or 'Alpha' thinking. An alpha dog is feared... I don't think we establish that with our dogs. a certain percentage of dogs will want to 'knock' the alpha off the top, I don't believe that happens too often either, At least I haven't heard of any buddies coming home and having to square off with their Golden or Lab to see who the king of the hill is. The females do most of the dominance training within the hierarchy of the pack... they are the ones allowing their young to eat and rolling them on their backs and biting them on their nose, not the alpha dog. If your family is a pack, how can you all be 'alpha'? There is only one 'alpha' in a pack... where does that leave everyone else. Does the dog get to work himself up in the pecking order? Blah blah blah... we can go on and on, why I don't buy all of it, but I will leave it with this: we are working with a domesticated dog, not a pack of 'yotes or wolves.

On to the correction. Rolling on the back is a good way to show dominance and getting them to be submissive. I literally get over the top of them and get in their face telling them "NO". While pinning their chin down onto their chest while they are on their back. Hold them in that position till you can tell they are going from an aggressive posture to one where they are submitting. At that point I'd take the food away and I wouldn't be to quick to give it back to them. Maybe a good hour or so.

I also like to do a lot of my obedience drills before and during chow time. Sit, stay and O.k. are common place today for a drill prior to them beginning to eat. But take it a step further and begin to work in "here' and "heel" while they are eating. This is great recall training for the pup. The one thing in their life that they want more than anything else at this stage, is their food. Once you can get them to leave the dish on command and return to your side and wait for an O.K. command to begin eating again is great training to lay the foundation for steadiness and recall on fly away birds. It is a hurdle best cleared at a young age. If they can master this when they're young with food, it's not near the leap to master with birds later in life. It also goes along with the whole dominance thing. They are only allowed to eat when allowed to.

Continue with the hands in the bowl of food and all run them all over the dog. Lift him up and physically move him from his dish. Make him sit and obey until released. Put you face down by his dish. Command sit. Put your hand in his dish and make like you are eating it. Then 'release' him again if he has no adverse effects. Mix it up many different ways over the next few months. I find it a great way to enforce obedience and to make the dog not so protective of his food or birds or anything. (Kallista, Remember the tug of war question you brought up? I don't play tug of war for many reasons, some physical, some mental. One of them is I think it creates a possessive attitude that I'd rather not instill.) I could trust a toddler to put his head in my dogs dish and the only thing I would need to worry about is them getting slobber in their eye! The pups know from day one that is O.K. to have people by their food and running their hands over them and lifting them up when they don't want them to, etc. etc. They know they will get plenty to eat and they know under no circumstances can they show aggression.... ever!

Good Luck!

Ken

[Birdshooter]

Take him to a professional trainer who has experience with this typoe of dog. I know of a few who do a very good job reading the dog etc. It needs to be stopped or you'll have bigger problems.

[shakey legs 2]

I have springers and to discipline them I would pick them up by  the loose skin on both sides of the neck and hold them eye ball to eye ball to me and then let them know with some very stern words and several shakes  who was in charge.  I remember reading somewhere that this is how the mother disciplines her pups.  A lab is a lot bigger than a springer so I don't know if this will work.  The whole idea is to get them off the ground so they are uncomfortable.  It might work to put the lab on a bench and then do the shake.

[Super Star!]

I have springers and to discipline them I would pick them up by  the loose skin on both sides of the neck and hold them eye ball to eye ball to me and then let them know with some very stern words and several shakes  who was in charge.  I remember reading somewhere that this is how the mother disciplines her pups.  A lab is a lot bigger than a springer so I don't know if this will work.  The whole idea is to get them off the ground so they are uncomfortable.  It might work to put the lab on a bench and then do the shake.

Dose this work on pitbulls to?

[shakey legs 2]

I would consult Michael Vick on Pit Bulls.  I understand he has some experience with them.

[Tami]

Thanks for all the info and help

As for taking him to a trainer.. No , i am training him...

Hunter retrieves, super, hes soft mouth, and brings to hand, somethign he has done on his own i didn't need to train him for FF. He wont drop that bird and sit there for hours holding it if need be. He heels, sits, lays down. He is now on all hand signals, so i don't even need to speak a word. He super on whistle as well. When hes in the fields, he makes circles and flashes towards me. If i leave food out he wont touch it. He really turned out in my training a super dog that any hunter would be proud of, i know i am..

But as you know many labs can be stubborn.. And it took a bit longer to teach him not to growl while eating and getting petted.. He is over this now..

I can do what ever i want while hes eating. It just took alittle time.

I am used to training, its just i asked for help here, since i haven't encountered, a dog that only growls while being petted and  talked to while eating, and i still was able to play with his food and he didn't do anything, very strange..

Hunter mom passed away from the c section, so hunter didn't have that from the mom, and yes you right if a pup does growl like that its the mom that will bite it in the bud so to speak, and this hunter was lacking.

But now Hunter is perfect, and we will be going far with him..

In trials in field and beyond...

Hunter got his CGC certification..................yay.....His first one....i am so happy..

So all is well, and thanks again for all your help

[Bobby Bass]

[/quote]

Dose this work on pitbulls to?
[/quote]

Yes it does, I have had three pits, treated with respect they are very trainable. I have one now that we hunt grouse over. Pits were originally used in hunting wild pigs. No they are not retrievers but work surprising well as flushers. Paired with a lab partner she has surpassed a lot of my friends that I hunt with. Bobby

[peent]

Make sure he knows sit and stay.  Put food down, don't let him eat it until you release him.  This teaches him that it is your food and you are in charge.  Another method is to hold a treat in front of him.  Same deal, don't let him take it until he takes it gently.  Pull it away when he grabs for it and scold him.  This works well on labs.

[Tami]

yes
thank you
we are past  this now

but great advise thanks
ng