opinion on spike bucks

[beeker]

I hear every year that some bucks will never be more than just a spike?  what is the general opinion out there? are some deer never going to be more than just a spike?

[MnDeerStalker]

two things come to mind when I hear this:
one being if you don't let them walk then how will you ever know?

And the second is even with bad genetics I don't believe that a deer will never be more then a spike, they may never grow into that 150,160, or 170" but they will definatly grow to more then a spike.

[HD]

It is possible, genetics and poor nutrition can play a factor.
7 years ago, I culled a buck that was aged at 4 1/2, by his teeth.
I had him on trail cameras for 3 of those years. He had a chunk missing out of his left ear, and that's how I always knew it was the same buck.
He was only a spike when I harvested him. His spikes were 10 inches long.
And dressed out at 212#
But, good documentation was kept on this deer from year to year.
And photo's were kept to compair.



Hunter

[beeker]

212# spike?! wow.    I ask because I got busted by one earlier this year that didn't seem to act like a young deer, and had a bigger body and facially it just looked older. 

so I wonder if that spikes offspring will only be capable of spikes or will some of the genetics come from the doe in that case which would give it the potential to be bigger?

[stevejedlenski]

we have a few spikes in our area every year and they seem to grow up into mature bucks.
here is a study done in texas which sounds like they have spent a ton of time doing.
http://www.huntingmag.com/big_game/spike_090607/index.html

yes i do believe some bucks just will not grow but most will. as for that 212lb spike, my guess is that he had an injury that led to poor antler growth. they ear may be a hint as well.

[beeker]

thanks stevejedlenski. that article explained there findings and how they came to their conclusion and it was nice it wasn't just based on opinion.

[HD]

Yes, I agree with Steve....most spike bucks will grow.
How far, is up to nutrition and genes.

This spike was tested, and no other injuries were found to have happened to the deer other than the ear. And it was just the tip that was missing, both senerio's were brought up that it was either a birth defect or an injury.

In most cases, if an injury has occured, it USUALLY only effects one side of antler growth. If the animal is injured on both sides, then yes, it could effect both antlers.

I worked on a farm that raised deer, and have seen this first hand.

Hunter

[guythathunts]

A buddy of mine this year shot a BIG spike. The antlers wraped arround and almost touched eachother. It had a 19 inch spread, but only the 2 points, and dressed aout arround 200lbs. I'll see if he has a pic of it. It's a neet deer.

[Auggie]

Yes, I agree with Steve....most spike bucks will grow.
How far, is up to nutrition and genes.

This spike was tested, and no other injuries were found to have happened to the deer other than the ear. And it was just the tip that was missing, both senerio's were brought up that it was either a birth defect or an injury.

In most cases, if an injury has occured, it USUALLY only effects one side of antler growth. If the animal is injured on both sides, then yes, it could effect both antlers.

I worked on a farm that raised deer, and have seen this first hand.

Hunter

Hunter and steve are right that most spikes will grow into better deer. Genetics is more important than nutrition however when it comes to antler growth. If they don't have the genetics all the feed in the world will not help. Late born fawns are many times spikes from what I have witnessed in the pen. In fact I have seen guys pay bigger $ for huge genetic does rather than bucks. I had one that went 170 at 3.5 that was a late born fawn and a spike his first year. The does genetics can play just as big a factor as the bucks. No different than any thing else.
In Hunters case, he had one that likely would never get any better. Taking it out of the gene pool was a good thing.

[deadeye]

stevejedlenski,
Very interesting report.  I must say I agree with all of it.  Not just because they appeared to use a very good approach, but it is also my experience.  One thing that really stands out is their finding that year to year may show a dramatic change in the number of spikes verses forks or larger deer.  This pretty much rules out genetics because the change is too rapid.  We also noticed this at our property.  Last year we saw many fork, 6, and 8 point 1.5 year old deer.  This fall we saw a lot more 1.5 year old spikes and forks with few 6 or better.
Like MnDeerStalker said, " if you don't let them walk then how will you ever know".

[beeker]

the other nice thing about that report was they didnt seem like tree huggers trying to tell hunters how to hunt. 

[Don Stenseth]

Judgeing by body size, This Buck was easily 3 1/2 years old. Yet this was all he managed for a rack. I guessed it was from an injury early in life.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Don Stenseth]

Here, He easily dominated a 2 1/2 year old 8 pointer during a sparring match. Go figure?

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[kenhuntin]

awesome! you guys that keep track of this are awesome

[deadeye]

You have to remember that deer don't have mirrors to "check out" their head gear so maybe this guy thinks he has the biggest set in the woods.  It's just like when you play indian poker. You can see what everybody else has but you just don't know for sure what you have. 

[Cody Gruchow]

well i give them 2 seasons maybe 3 depending on if they get away from me or not. but the neighboor shots mostly spikes and forks. its hard to practice QDM when no one else around you does it. but if i have pictures of them and no positivily that its the same one ill take it, as a last option.

[stevejedlenski]

well what i do is let all 1.5 year old deer go even 2.5 maybe 3.5 year old deer go and take the bad genetic bucks then, when you know they arent going to get bigger. the reason being that i dont know if they will get bigger until they are big. and another reason is that how effective can you actually be in "changing" the genes on your small 40 acres and 3 bucks a year. this may work on a 10,000 acre ranch where they take 30 bucks a year but not likely going to effect it on your small area. yes it may help over many years, but those small bucks wont likely reproduce until they are older anyways so take them as a small 8 3.5 year old rather than a spike. my opinion and everyone may do what they want, so do it, it wont effect my hunting any.

[Cody Gruchow]

i hunt a total of 640 acres on the one parcel thats were we practice QDM then i hunt another 180 acres about 15 minutes away from the first one and the other one i hunt is were i work and we practice QDM here also and thats 400acres so by no means do i hunt small areas lol

[Auggie]

stevejedlenski,
Very interesting report.  I must say I agree with all of it.  Not just because they appeared to use a very good approach, but it is also my experience.  One thing that really stands out is their finding that year to year may show a dramatic change in the number of spikes verses forks or larger deer.  This pretty much rules out genetics because the change is too rapid.  We also noticed this at our property.  Last year we saw many fork, 6, and 8 point 1.5 year old deer.  This fall we saw a lot more 1.5 year old spikes and forks with few 6 or better.
Like MnDeerStalker said, " if you don't let them walk then how will you ever know".

Deadeye,
    Genetics are extremely important. Nutrition may have an affect on small deer being worse than their potential, I agree. Fork to a spike with poor feed, can very well happen. Fork instead of a spike with good feed, for sure. But when you are talking about putting actual inches on deer, that is a relatively small difference. If a deer is genetically capable of a 150 inch rack all the feed in the world will not put 20 more inches on him. In order to get the big racks they need the genes. Good feed will increase the rate at which they can reach their potential. And in the wild of course a little more age.
    Another thing that I have noticed in the pen is smaller bucks sometimes blossom if they are allowed to become the dominant buck in a group. Sometimes we might have a buck that we know should produce but doesn't. Put him down in a pen with a few girls and a couple bucks of a lesser age class and they explode the next year.

[stevejedlenski]

auggie-
 i think what deadeye was saying is that from year to year there are different numbers of spikes vs forks. say this year 2 spikes 5 forks and next 8 spikes and 1 fork. so he would say that the deer population as a whole cannot change that quickly and so it shows that nutrition must be a big part of it.

[deadeye]

Yes, steve that's what I intended to say.  I'm sure genetics has a lot to do with potential, but other factors, (food, weather, twins/triplets, early or late fawn) will contribute a lot to the size of a 1.5 year olds rack.  For example, in 2007 we saw many twins and a few triplets.  These deer were 1.5 years old this fall and most sported spikes and forks.  By the same token, the year before that, (2006) we saw mostly single with a few twin fawns.  when these were 1.5 years old (2007) many had 5 - 8 point basket racks. 
The main point is it's doubtfull the genetics in the area change much from year to year yet the 1.5 year old racks can change significantly.
Note: This is purely my observation and not a scientific study.   

[Auggie]

Yes, steve that's what I intended to say.  I'm sure genetics has a lot to do with potential, but other factors, (food, weather, twins/triplets, early or late fawn) will contribute a lot to the size of a 1.5 year olds rack.  For example, in 2007 we saw many twins and a few triplets.  These deer were 1.5 years old this fall and most sported spikes and forks.  By the same token, the year before that, (2006) we saw mostly single with a few twin fawns.  when these were 1.5 years old (2007) many had 5 - 8 point basket racks. 
The main point is it's doubtfull the genetics in the area change much from year to year yet the 1.5 year old racks can change significantly.
Note: This is purely my observation and not a scientific study.   

[/quote
I agree with everything you said deadeye, I just wanted to make sure the genetics were not downplayed. All of the factors you mentioned happened to suppress the genetics in your 1.5 old deer this year. The year before the genetics were enhanced because all the contributing factors allowed it. This is the reason I say genes are the most important factor of what a buck can potentially develop into. Spike to fork or fork to a small 6 pointer are not a relatively big difference in inches. If a deer has a tough winter they are in general going to have less feed, less fawns will be carried to term, and antler production for bucks will be less the following summer. They need to be in tip top shape before they start growing those antlers or they will never reach the potential they have. I think we both agree in most situations a spike should be allowed to walk.