Rethinking tactics for trophy hunters

[Moving2thecountry]

Maybe trophy deer should be taken after the rut, so that they can get one last chance to spread those genes.

[dakids]

Mature deer are very hard to get outside of the rut and I think that I will take them before they go back to being nocturnal.  Besides that trophy had the same genes when he was only 2.5.

[Cody Gruchow]

i second what dakids said. there big for a reason. cause there smart, and nocturnal. the rut makes them more vulnerable and chances are the genes have been spread.

[Mayfly]

Maybe trophy deer should be taken after the rut, so that they can get one last chance to spread those genes.

In any given area there should be at least 4 classes of whitetail and that is being liberal. That would suggest that there are 1 1/2 yo's 2 1/2 yo's etc... that goes up the 4 1/2 and I am not including this years fawns. His genes already should run deep in that area so it should not be a concern. What is concering is that there are people that do shoot mature whitetails and then some yahoo in the area shoots everything brown which further reduces his genes in the area. Thats the real issue.

[HD]

Maybe trophy deer should be taken after the rut, so that they can get one last chance to spread those genes.

In any given area there should be at least 4 classes of whitetail and that is being liberal. That would suggest that there are 1 1/2 yo's 2 1/2 yo's etc... that goes up the 4 1/2 and I am not including this years fawns. His genes already should run deep in that area so it should not be a concern. What is concering is that there are people that do shoot mature whitetails and then some yahoo in the area shoots everything brown which further reduces his genes in the area. Thats the real issue.

I agree with MNO

Before , during or after the rut....the genes are already there.

[Moving2thecountry]

Biologically speaking, though, if you want more big racks, you need to improve the reproductive success of the bucks producing big racks.  In this regard, if you killed the bucks with small racks for several years, and left the big ones to propagate their genes, you'll end up with a population of bucks with larger racks. 

It's all about differential reproductive success in micro-evolution terms. 

[jigglestick]

think about this. if all we did was manage for trophy racks, then they would be common and not "trophies".
might just as well go to the farm and butcher one.
the fact that they do exist in tough times, makes it all the more a trophy.
they're out there already. go kill one.
scout track, pattern and kill one.

for those who havent got the time or commitment to do the dirty work I can see where managing for trophies might be handy.

[Moving2thecountry]

I'm actually ambivalent.  If I get a trophy, I have to figure out where to put it, and get my wife to go along.  I'm responding to complaints that we don't have enough big bucks.  If people pass up small bucks for big bucks, the trend of fewer big bucks will continue to get worse, from a biological perspective (at least from my understanding of biology and micro-evolution).

[HD]

Biologically speaking, though, if you want more big racks, you need to improve the reproductive success of the bucks producing big racks.  In this regard, if you killed the bucks with small racks for several years, and left the big ones to propagate their genes, you'll end up with a population of bucks with larger racks. 

It's all about differential reproductive success in micro-evolution terms. 

I supose you would, but how large would that population be?
I would tend to believe that the population would be smaller in regards to letting the smaller bucks to grow.

[deadeye]

Moving2thecoun,
For the sake of this discussion, maybe it would help if we changed "small bucks" to "young bucks".  Most places there is a significant difference between a 1.5 and 2.5 year old buck.   

[Moving2thecountry]

Maybe, but at what age do bucks get to mate?  I guess that shooting young bucks and old bucks with small racks would do more to positively affect (if you like big racks) the population than shooting mature bucks with big racks.  Those mature bucks with big racks pass their genes on to does and bucks.

On the other hand, at least one source on the internet writes:

Ever since modern deer hunting arose we have been selecting the best for death and the worst for procreation. If two bucks walk out, much more often then not the large racked buck is shot. If a spike walks out at 250 yards, there is a good chance that you will think it's a doe. So for at least 100 years we have been selecting the worst genetics for our deer herd. But in spite of this the genetics have remained pretty much unchanged. So if you think your hunting club can improve what 100+ years has not been able to accomplish (change the genetics) then you are sadly mistaken. 

But it seems to me that biology can be successfully used, despite the above quoted words.

[dakids]

Large deer antlers are the result of 3 things.
1 nutrition- In a wet year the food sources produce higher nutrient brows. Food plots and mineral sites help.
2 genetics- Can do very little to change this as the does contribute half of the dna which makes bigger racks.
3 Age-  This is the one thing that has the greatest impact of all.  Stop shooting the young buttons and forks and in 2 years there will be a larger population of mature deer to try and shoot.

With more mature bucks in the heard the rut will be more intence and SHORTER and the chance of a doe not getting bread the first time goes way down.  With a shorter rut the bucks will go into the winter in better shape and less likely to die during the winter.

[jigglestick]

With more mature bucks in the heard the rut will be more intence and SHORTER and the chance of a doe not getting bread the first time goes way down.  With a shorter rut the bucks will go into the winter in better shape and less likely to die during the winter.

I want to be sure I understand this because there are more bucks the rut, or period in which it takes all the does to be bred will be shorter?

if that is what your saying, I'm not buying it.

I believe a doe will come in ready to breed when she comes in. this will vary from doe to doe.
it has nothing to do with the number of bucks. she will be willing to stand for a fairly short period of time, maybe 36 to 48 hours? an educated guess.
during that time, a buck must intercept her, whether he finds her or she comes to him.
as the does are done coming into estrous, the rut starts to subside.
it seems to me, though i realize there are probably other factors that play into the length of time from the first doe to the last doe coming in, the fewer does, the shorter the rut.

dakids, don't think I'm arguing for the sake of arguing. I'm known for that, but not this time.
just bashing around thoughts and ideas trying to sift through thoughts that make sense.

I'd be up for an early season hunt for the kids. say where. 

while it is true, the less energy a buck expels during the breeding season, the better shape he will be in going into winter.

[deadeye]

jigglestick,
Look at it this way.  A couple young studs go into different night clubs looking to score.  The first guy goes to a club with 10 girls to every guy.  He knows he hit the jackpot and will probably spen the next month going back after which he will be worn out and broke.  The second guy goes in a club with more guys than girls.  He is going to have a tough go to score and will have to bring his "A" game being there is heavy competion.  If successful, he will have had tough night but overall he will still have some energy and money left. 
Maybe thats not a good analogy but it was fun writting.  Anyway, studies have shown there is a shorter more intense rut when the buck to doe ratio is closer.  Let's say an area has 10 does for every buck.  Being a buck may stay with a doe for a few days, there is no way he can make it through all the does during one cycle.  This extends the rut being some does will have to be bred in a later cycle.  Makes some sense to me.