Switiching sides on APR

[Stnmtz]

Maybe do like other states and have people have to apply for a buck tag instead of a doe tag.  Seems to work in south dakota. 

AMEN!!!!  totally agree

[mathews4ever]

Whatever you communists.

[Swany]

Maybe do like other states and have people have to apply for a buck tag instead of a doe tag.  Seems to work in south dakota. 

ND has the same application/lottery process. It is a major bummer when you don't draw a buck tag, but it does seem to work fairly well.

[Swany]

If that's true then i should be able to hunt anyone's property any time i feel like it beings it a natural resource for the state.
[/quote]

I can see the correlation you are alluding to, but individual property owner rights would work against that theory.

I also was not attempting to blow anything out of proportion. I was just stating that if I want to hunt deer, I have to play by whatever rules are laid out for me by the MNDNR because they decide (good, bad, or ugly) how to manage their product.

[Mayfly]

Protecting YEARLING bucks is not a trophy regulation. You guys that say that are misinformed.  

Many people that object to or oppose APR regulations say APR is all about growing trophy bucks.

The truth is that 4 point APR's only protect 75% of the yearling bucks in a given area. Yearling bucks don't make the trophy record books. 7 pointers and above are fair game, clearly this is not a trophy program and only is out to protect the over harvest of yearling bucks. It can help those who are trying to manage for a more balanced buck age structure with a "jump start" to their program, but for anyone not wanting to manage for older bucks, they don't have to.


[youtube]
[/youtube]

[Mayfly]

Here is a great look at what APR does to the buck harvest. This is more evidence that says this is not solely a trophy buck regulation. It basically just protects a year class of deer. Similar to a lot of regs out there for walleyes and other fish here in the state. Imagine if 75% of all walleye under 15 inches were harvested from the state. I'm sure that would raise some eye brows. For the MN deer heard to sustain our hunting pressure we need to properly manage it just like we do all our natural resources. We, (MN), lead the nation in yearling buck harvest. You see nothing wrong with that?

Here is a graph to show you what the harvest looked like after APR was enacted in Missouri.

[stevejedlenski]

ok so heres a theory, now all these guys that shoot a yearling buck every year have to let them walk and take a doe instead. which results in less fawns next year. this continues until every permit area is now a lottery area. yes bigger bucks better doe to buck ratio, "better herd quality" but less hunters having a good time enjoying hunting. eventually it becomes that some hunters just dont want to hunt anymore. could this happen? maybe. how did you all start as hunters? did your party shoot deer often? ill tell you we started as shooting everything we saw. it was a blast as a kid even before i hunted. now we only shoot big bucks and maybe shoot 1 or 2 deer a year. as a kid growing up hunting would have been less appealing if i saw my dad spending 300hrs in the field and shooting a big buck every few years.

will APR really change anyones way of hunting? not really. but this is a doom and gloom look at it and what some think it will do. in reality all that will happen is you will shoot a bigger buck or doe instead of a little buck and then next year you can harvest him. in truth the impact will be no more than that of switching from a managed to intensive area from year to year.

what it comes down to is WHY should we inact this regulation? is it really to benifit everyone or anything? or just because large antlers are the new fad? is it really that bad that a guy is happy with shooting a small buck and enjoying himself? who are we to say that he will be more happy with shooting a big buck or that he needs to wait 'till next year to shoot this guy so i can have a chance at shooting bigger deer.


i say try to win your neighbors over but if they are having fun and dont want to participate then deal with it or move to kansas or iowa. i love chasing big bucks and it kills me when i see a 2.5 yr old ive passed several times haging in a garage, but who am I to say shame on you?

[deadeye]

The debate for APR will go on for a while.  Here are a couple misconceptions (my opinion only) put forth by the hunters opposed to APR.
1. I'm a meat hunter, people will quit hunting because they can't shoot a deer, APR is "trophy" hunting.  For some reason people seem to think all the 1.5 year old bucks will vaporize if not killed.  Guess what, they will still be there next year. Ok, some will be lost but all the ones shot will be gone.  I agree the first year or two will result in less deer taken, however, after that there really would not be much difference other than the bucks will be older.

1.  NO body can tell me what to do or shoot on my property, each hunter should be able to control his legal take as he sees fit, a few should not be able to tell me what to shoot or not shoot.  We all deal with regulations every day.  I can't shoot a rifle out my back door.  I can't shoot an eagle.  I can't shoot a hen pheasant.  I can't go 100 mph down the highway.  I can't drain my swamp.  I can't shoot turkeys with a rifle.  I have to claim all my income on my 1040.  These are laws, rules and regulations.  We all live by them and most obey them.  It's called civilization.  Good or bad, we live with the laws.

[kenhuntin]

We must also realize that hunting for ivory is a common practice. It is unfair to an animal to kill it for the sole purpose of it's antlers.
 If I were to propose a restriction on antler size which I would not do  the large antlered deer with the best genetics would be protected to better the herd.
APR WILL make criminals out of law abiding citizens because they can humanely harvest an animal but a miscount will occur because his head was obscured by a twig that looked like a point. APR will also not allow a hunter to take a poor genetic animal with a silly little rack out of the breeding population. More laws = less freedoms. Say no to socialism.

[deadeye]

kenhuntin,
Yes, it would be unfair to kill a deer for the sole purpose of it's antlers.  However, no one said anything about discarding the deer and keeping only the antlers.  As a matter of fact, a 200 pound buck would produce a lot more meat than a 135 pounder.  So, if you are a meat hunter, you probably would be better off with a big one. 

I agree with you on taking the largest antlered deer can indeed impact the overall genetics of the herd.  I don't know the solution to this conundrum.

I'm not so sure about making criminals out of law abiding citizens.  How many small bucks are shot today by people thinking they shot a doe? 

I hardly equate APR to socialism.  However, you are right if you believe more laws = less freedom. 

Your comments are well taken.  Thanks for the reply. 
   

[kenhuntin]

All the conditions that have been previously mentioned do exist. Which is why no further legislation should incur.
Some hunters will only shoot does because they they feel the bucks need protection
Some only shoot bucks because they feel taking a doe is a sacriledge
Some only harvesst mature bucks
Some take the first deer they see including fawns
Who is right and who is wrong?
 I myself let alot of small bucks walk because of what the potential could be .And have never been a fan of Minnesotas buck only regulation. I feel it created a mindset that gives you a pat on the back because you killed a little buck. Inevitably hunters have to live with the consequences of their actions next year. Apr is a bad idea just as bad as how well slot limits have done for Mille lacs walleyes for example.

[mathews4ever]

I'm not so sure about making criminals out of law abiding citizens.  How many small bucks are shot today by people thinking they shot a doe? 
 
   

I know three guys that had this happen to them this year during firearm season. luckily they were able to put their primary tag on the deer. In that case no harm no foul, but with APRs they are criminals and would be fined. Sure sounds like it would make law abiding citizens into criminals.

[bweyer]

I'm always torn about it. I don't like the idea of more regulations. However I don't like seeing the slaughter of the 1.5 year olds every year. On the other hand I know those young deer are satisfying to others. Although I think people would have a bit bigger grin with a 160lb and up sized deer in their hands. Couple years of letting those forks pass for a larger more mature deer seems like it would be worth the sacrifice. So if I had a vote I'd vote for it.

[deadeye]

Mathews4ever,
Point well taken.  However, the guy who doesn't notice he's speeding or didn't see a stop/yield sign should not be labled a criminal.  He may well have broken the law but that's a far cry from being a criminal. The intent of APR is not to make criminals out of hunters.  I know full well that it may at times be very difficult to see or count antler points (I shot a number of 10 points that I though were 8 pointers) prior to deciding to shoot.  However, there is much to be enjoyed and learned while waiting until your sure of your target.  No doubt mistakes will be made and dealt with.  I have enough trust in fellow hunters to believe they won't just shoot and count later.  Like dweyer said, within a year or two, the same number of deer/bucks will be available they just will be more mature.

[mathews4ever]

However, the guy who doesn't notice he's speeding or didn't see a stop/yield sign should not be labled a criminal.  He may well have broken the law but that's a far cry from being a criminal. The intent of APR is not to make criminals out of hunters. 

I understand and agree with your comment, but the ticket that those people get is the same as the people(criminals) that did it on purpose. So your right that they are not criminals, but they sure are treated like one. Now before anybody gives me the ol' "what are we not supposed to have stop signs and speed limits either" bit, let's be adults and remember that a kid has never been ran over by a car because somebody shot a spike buck.

[HD]

Here's my deal, I have harvested hundereds of deer in my lifetime. I have the patience to shoot or not shoot. As a matter of fact, I really don't care if I harvest or not. But, my kids are not that seasoned, and when they see antlers, they shoot (da buck fever don't ya know) Do they take the time to count, they try. Am I gonna be pissed if they shoot a little one? Hell no. If they get a ticket for shooting a little one, am I gonna be pissed? Hell ya! How old are the kids that hunt with me? 14 & 22

[Mayfly]

Here's my deal, I have harvested hundereds of deer in my lifetime. I have the patience to shoot or not shoot. As a matter of fact, I really don't care if I harvest or not. But, my kids are not that seasoned, and when they see antlers, they shoot (da buck fever don't ya know) Do they take the time to count, they try. Am I gonna be pissed if they shoot a little one? Hell no. If they get a ticket for shooting a little one, am I gonna be pissed? Hell ya! How old are the kids that hunt with me? 14 & 22

17 and under are exempt under the current zone 3 regs. Doesn't help your 22 year old but does the younger one... Thats if it was a reg where you hunt.

[HD]

I understand the age scenario. But, in years past, I have taken handicapped hunters out...and prolly will again, then I would have to disappoint a child on what he or she could harvest. That would suck .....

Also, I could see a lot of folks either lying about what they shot or not even registering at all.

[ray634]

why do you sat you would have to dissapoint a child? If the APR does not apply to under 18 what effect would taking a handicap out have on a youth tag?

[HD]

The ones I have taken out in the past would not fall under the youth tag guide lines.

[Cody Gruchow]

In the end the DNR wants deer harvested and people happy. A lot of ppl in mn are happy to shoot anything. Again I say why take that away from them, because a small margin wants bigger deer. I say the state just does what it's already doing. If you want APR then go ahead and practice it, no one is saying you can't or shouldnt

[HD]

From what I have read, the APR movement is growing and the folks on the other side of the coin have become the minority.

Fact or fiction?

[dakids]

both,  the apr faction is growing but they are still the minority

[naturalistmn]

I've been ready the comments on this post.   Some of them are accurate and some are not.   Truth is, APR actually has nothing to do with antler size.   It has everything to do with age.   How troubled would our state be if the majority of people were only 15 years old?   A bit out of wack, much like the mn herd.   You need a strong mature age class in every species, even our own.  You don't keep little fish just for the simple fact that they bit, do you?   Hope not.   Every animal also deserves the "chance" to reach maturity.   I am going to debunk some of what I have heard.   I apologize, this may be a tad lengthy.

I hear this ALL the time.   "If I don't shoot it, my neighbors will."   Well, first off, if you shoot it, he has ZERO chances at making it another year.   If he has a very little chance at making it through the neighbors, that's still more than he'll have dead at YOUR feet.   APR's will greatly help this.

"I don't want someone telling me what I can and can't shoot."   I'm not really going to get too deep with this one, pretty cut and dry.   ALL B.S. aside, what it comes down to is some people don't want to have to pass up a shot opportunity and are affriad they may not get a deer.   If you are not happy with the amount of opprotunities you get, perhaps its time to find a new spot.

"People just want to be in the woods having a good time and shoot deer."   Why do you have to shoot a deer?   Being in the woods is the funnest part alone, whether or not you wack one.   APR's will increase the quality of your outdoor experience, believe me.

The famous "meat hunter."   Everyone that shoots a deer is a meat hunter.   I've never known anyone to waste any venison, have you?   Guys that wack hog bucks gobble that stuff down to.   A while back I heard a gentleman say there is no recipe for antlers so I shoot whatever buck I can.   He answered it himself, you can't eat the antlers so....   shoot a doe.   If you can't shoot a doe in your area, find one in which you can.   My area had been a managed area for around 20 years, not this year.   I had to find me a new doe smackin' spot.   Did it stop me, no.   It all comes down to how badly you want it.   Not doing some homework and complaining isn't going to fill your freezer.

"Trophy" hunters just want big antlers.   Let me fill  you in on something.   Turning SOME 1.5 year old bucks into 2.5 year bucks doesn't mean 150's are going to be running around like skeeters in the summer.   And, a 2.5 year old is not a trophy deer, most reaching around 115-120 inches.   It just gives them an edge to make it to maturity is all.   APR's will help this.   Everyones "trophy size" is different yes, so we'll just base it off what it takes to make him P.Y. and B.C.   It, in no way, will make it easier to shoot a hog buck, BUT there will be more of them.   Which will indeed help everyones odds.  

EVERYONE who deer hunts is a meat hunter AND a trophy hunter all in one.   No one wastes venison and everyone would love to shoot a big old hog buck.   If you say you do it for the meat and a fork walks in with a giant 10 point, you're shooting the 10 point.   Period.

"I feed my family with it."   No you don't.   If you don't shoot a deer, no one is going to starve to death.   Venison is a treat, not a means of survival.

"I thought it was a doe."  Am I the only one who finds this a bit troublesome?   I learned how not to have this happen when I was a small boy.   You MUST identify your target before you even THINK about pulling the trigger!   If there is ANY doubt, don't shoot.   Pretty simple.   Again, just affraid to pass a shot opprotunity.   I don't care if it has one four inch spike and is running, if your not 100% sure of your target, DON'T SHOOT.   APR will even help with saftey and identification, who knew...

A group of hunters was standing over a pile of 1.5 year old bucks and said that they must have a poor food sources because they don't have big racks in the area they hunt.   Ah, ok, let's take a second and think about that one....

Hell, I wish they would put slots on bluegill.   I see so many pails filled with silver dallors and then everyone complains that the certain body of water isn't what it used to be.   We really need to improve how we manage our resources.   It's hard to please everyone all the time, but APR's really have something to offer every "type" of deer hunter.   It is a regulation, yes, but one that is of a positive principle to not only better the deer hunters experiences, but to also and most importantly better Minnesota's deer herd.

As outdoorsman alike, this shouldn't be a hunting "style" vs. hunting "style" situation.   It's not about us, it's about the deer and I think people are losing site of that.   Trophy hunters, meat hunters, gun hunters, bow hunters, blah blah blah.   All we want to do is focus on how the deer affect our hunting and not how our hunting affects the deer.   Let's stop complaining about how this will affect our personal leisure time and start focusing on what's best for the DEER.   APR protects small young deer, can't understand why that's a problem for anyone.   We should be proud to have that as stewards of the land.   It's not about if you get a deer or not, and it's not about if I shoot a big buck or not.   But, that's all I ever hear about APR's.   APR's are not for the people, it's for the deer.   Remember that.  

[HD]

Sorry, even after the long post, I still don't see the importance of APR.
We do our own style of QDM, and still have 2 1/2'ers running around even after the kids may have whacked a couple small ones. (And by kids, I mean 14 to 25)

I see, and have heard both sides...and unless you can provide specific data upholding the claim of APR...I'm still on the fence.

We still harvest quality deer without the extra regulations.

[Cody Gruchow]

naturalistmn- i agree with and at the same time i dont. i agree with people should know what they are shooting at before they even consider pulling the trigger. and i also agree one of the best parts is just sitting in the woods.. but ill stick to my guns and say that if someone wants to practice APR then they can, and no one should look down upon them. but the same goes for someone who shoots a spike. if they are happy with that deer then good for them. we do our own form of QDM here in the metro and we are seeing bigger deer, but thats with access to 400 acres so its easy to be choosey with what i pull the trigger on.

[mathews4ever]

  APR protects small young deer, can't understand why that's a problem for anyone.

This statement couldn't be more untrue. APRs protect 1.5 year old bucks, not young deer. I could still shoot all the 1.5 year old does I want. Heck, with party hunting I could fill a 10 yard dump truck with button bucks and doe fawns. How is that helping protect young deer. If you ask me it is just trying to get bigger bucks.

[naturalistmn]

  APR protects small young deer, can't understand why that's a problem for anyone.

This statement couldn't be more untrue. APRs protect 1.5 year old bucks, not young deer. I could still shoot all the 1.5 year old does I want. Heck, with party hunting I could fill a 10 yard dump truck with button bucks and doe fawns. How is that helping protect young deer. If you ask me it is just trying to get bigger bucks.

A 1.5 year old buck is a small young deer, therefore, making that statement very accurate and true.   You don't feel APR protects small young deer?   Than what is it exactly that it does?

[naturalistmn]

For those of you who say you practice QDM, what do you do and why do you do them?

[mathews4ever]

  APR protects small young deer, can't understand why that's a problem for anyone.

This statement couldn't be more untrue. APRs protect 1.5 year old bucks, not young deer. I could still shoot all the 1.5 year old does I want. Heck, with party hunting I could fill a 10 yard dump truck with button bucks and doe fawns. How is that helping protect young deer. If you ask me it is just trying to get bigger bucks.

A 1.5 year old buck is a small young deer, therefore, making that statement very accurate and true.   You don't feel APR protects small young deer?   Than what is it exactly that it does?

I already said. It protects 1.5 year old bucks. Yes they are young deer but so are young does and fawns. What regulations protect them? Oh wait, does are not important because they will never have monster antlers.