What would you do?

[Randy Kaar]

I have met "dakids" and he is a good man!

randy

[HD]

Sorry, but I had to edit that word.

Hunter

[thunderpout]

Just gotta put my two cents in... Wildlifemn,  Thats a very sad and unfortunate story about your friends son... but its not the fault of the person that built the stand really, in fact its really nobodys fault, but, did you re-inforce or inspect that old stand to make it safe for use?  I mean no disrespect, but if it collapsed/fell apart with just a child in it, it sounds like it wasnt fit to be used.... We have hunted State forest land for years, yes we build permanent stands, but not the huge walled/roofed condos alot of folks put on their private land.... they are overbuilt,safe(much safer than any portable you could buy, in fact safer than peoples decks on their houses!)  We repair any damage, and fix them up/improve them ALL every summer/fall and inspect them again before they get used in the fall... even though they are built well enough to park a car in them if it would fit, youd be surprised what mother nature can do to a stand in less than a season!  You dont see them from any trails/fire roads, they are camo-burlaped so they blend right in to the woods, youll never find them unless the leaves are down from the trees.  I do agree with you on the people that build the peices of junk stands they use for one weekend and then leave them/never use them again... yep that to me is wrong, and the same as littering in the woods, and thats great that you would take the time to "clean things up".... But I gotta say I would not be a happy camper if you tore our stands down... I know its public land... and weve had guys using our stands before a few times, and thats ok I guess, everyone that hunts our area knows all the other hunting parties up there, we all know where everyone hunts generally, and we all respect each groups stands, & the "elbow room" between us, we check in with each other when we are up there working on stands pre-season(we all seem to be up there every year around the beginning of October...) and thru the week during the season... so, I guess where Im going here is, unless you are a person/group who just showed up in "our" area opening day expecting to hunt wherever you please, every hunter in our area respects the other hunters hunt, doesnt move in on other people spots... and because of this everyone gets along great, and we never have many issues, when there are issues, its always someone who shows up opening saturday not having checked into wheather someone else has stand set up and doesnt care if they are ruining things for others... our party has had generations of families hunting the same area there, some have had their ashes scattered there when theyve passed on to the big woods in the sky... and we know that some of the others that hunt there also go way back in years also... to have someone just going thru the woods tearing down good peoples good stands that people put time and money into is wrong.... as far as dakids dilema.. its a tough situation... but yeah, I personally would have the youngins hunt with mom till you straighten things out... I would try to talk to the other group and try to reach some kind of an agreement/understanding... sometimes it doesnt work, but its worth a try... if things dont go well, lifes too short, then someone has to be the better man and step aside, find another spot... I hope things work out for ya dakids!

[Outdoors Junkie]

WildlifeMN,

I am sorry to hear about the loss of your best friends son.  I am sure it was a horrible experience.



I would like to share my thoughts on this topic.  I have hunted on State Forest Land near Upper Red Lake since I was 12 years old (25 years).  This is the same area my dad has hunted since 1970 and my grandpa started hunting when he was 18-19 years old (in the late 1940's).  We have a mutal respect for our fellow hunters and know a lot of them that set up hunting camps in the area. 

We use permanant stands, portable stands and even some ground blinds.  Every fall our hunting party goes and checks every permanant stand we are going to be using.  We make repairs to the stands that need it.  We check each rung on the ladder climbing up to the stand, we jump around on the platform, we push and pull on the railings.  We are very picky when it comes to safety.  I have my grandma who uses these stands and she is over 75 years old.  I have my dad and my 13 year old son who uses these stands.  None of them climb up into a questionable stand.  Each of them have their guns unloaded and either passed up, or pulled up with a rope.  The past couple years we have begun to use safety harnesses when in stands.

We have had people come thru and cut up, and break down some of our stands over the years.  Which is very frustrating!  We may cuss about it for a few minutes, but we just rebuild or repair and continue hunting in the area.  We have had people set up portables 15-20 yards away from our stands.  Most of the time we still sit in our stand.  They always leave. 

If my son was sitting with me, I would not sit in that stand.  If I was by myself, I would sit in it.

You want it to be a safe, enjoyable experience for your child.  I would have her sit with mom.  After that first morning, the other hunter may leave and then you can sit with her in that stand after that.

I wish you and everyone else a very safe, fun and succesful hunt this year!   

[kenhuntin]

After thinking about it for a while I am planning on using a popup blind in 1 of my other spots,     

I hope the pop up is blaze orange especially if you are on public land. Has anyone ever heard of someone unloading a gun on a running deer? Orange in the background has stopped me from taking a shot before.

[HUNTER2]

I think every body should just obey the rules and every thing would be alright. I don't have to put up with it any more because I have my own land. But I used to run into it when I hunted public land. The law says it all. If you put a stand up on public land AND DON'T TAKE IT DOWN WHEN YOU LEAVE, you should be prepared to lose it. Plane and simple.

[beeker]

theres been a few post that have stated it's legal to build a stand on state/county land.. I have been through the reg book and just don't see it printed anywhere, I would like to see this reg.. because I just don't believe it. please direct me to where it is. where if I'm wrong I would like to know.

when people are respectful and don't forget that they are hunting public land, then public land is enjoyable. but I have run into people who have a misplaced sense of ownership over public land and go out of there way to intimidate people.

[Outdoors Junkie]

theres been a few post that have stated it's legal to build a stand on state/county land.. I have been through the reg book and just don't see it printed anywhere, I would like to see this reg.. because I just don't believe it. please direct me to where it is. where if I'm wrong I would like to know.

Page 72 in the 2009 Hunting & Trapping Reg book under elevated stands.  It is under the second item described.  Portables are encouraged (not required) in State Forest lands.

Page 112...Any permanent unoccupied stand or blind on public land is public
and not the property of the person who constructed the stand.

[beeker]

rigth above that on page 112 also says ..
• The use of portable tree stands is recommended, especially those
which can be secured without driving nails into trees. Nails are
a safety hazard for woodcutters and harm the forest. Personal
property must be removed from State Forest lands. It is illegal to
destroy state property, including the cutting of trees for shooting
lanes. Littering and erecting permanent buildings are prohibited.

all over the reg book it is very specific and states

does no damage to trees or other vegetation. Nails,
spikes, screws or other devices that damage the bark of trees are prohibited.

I don't see how those 2 sentences permit the construction of a permanent stand in a tree. maybe a permanent stand independant of a state owned tree.

 

[Outdoors Junkie]

I am not trying to get into a pissing match with you.  I have spoke with the local CO in the area that I hunt.  Permanent stands are allowed in MN State Forest.

You asked for examples, I provided the spots I could find in the reg's (even though they are vague).

The loggers that cut timber around our hunting area always leave the trees with stands in them.  The stands are left out in the middle of a clear cut.  Their logging equipment does not get damaged that way.

Our hunting party uses more portable stands then permanent.  My 75+ year old grandma does not feel comfortable in most of our portables.  She likes the permanent stands we have constructed for her.

We pick up our litter, and do not eract permanent buildings. 

You may want to ask the CO or Game Warden in your area what is legal.

[Randy Kaar]

We had the MN DNR cut down 2 perm stands that we built, That was 10 years ago or so in the
Mcandrews state forest. The old guys that lived down the road said the DNR truck was parked
along the road and they heard chain saws running. The DNR rules are clear as mud!

We dont have to deal with any of that since we are hunting private land this year, except half
of our camp will be hunting land that is next to a state forest that gets a lot of pressure. So they
will have to deal with people who dont know where the state land ends.

back to the subject...  Would be nice to have a rule book that people could understand.. So many
ways to interperate the rules...

randy

[beeker]

dont' take my post as a personal attack. I really don't care to get in a pissing match either and that was not the intent of my post (which has gone off topic and I apologize for that). I think there is allot of vagness and miss information that surrounds the regs and think everyone can benefit from reviewing these and not relying on word of mouth or what they thought they heard.

it would be nice if the regs had an interpretor that came with them that would define what they consider a permanent building? or what their definition of a stand is.

I hope you guys do well and that your granny is hunting with you for many many years

[dakids]

The high tree stands are on fed. land (chipawa nat. forest) in Cass county.
I got this from the cass county web site.

Tree stands that damage trees are not allowed; no nails, bolts, or screws. All new tree stands that damage trees will be removed; old tree stands will be removed as timber sales take place in an area.



The county encourages portable tree stands, freestanding stands, and any tree stands that do not damage trees.


I think what the law is trying to encourage is stopping people from taking ownership of state land.  Stopping the "we have hunted this spot for 50 million years and you need to leave aditude.  If I had erected an illegal permanent stand I would have been saying to everyone else this is my spot and stay the f*** off.  It's not very nice.  I hunt in a portable tree stand (tree saddle).  I don't use the marking ribbon(garbage) that people use to find their stands and don't ever seem to remove when they leave.  By the other hunter putting a ladder stand out there they are taking ownership of that spot.  If I get out there before them they don't have a very easy way to move locations.  

In my opinion All perminant stands are illegal on public property.  As you walk through public land how many old and falling down stands do you see?  I see a lot.  They are left there and never cleaned up.    

[wildlifeminnesota]

Thunderpout, You said this, That a very sad and unfortunate story about your friends son... but it’s not the fault of the person that built the stand really, in fact its really nobodies fault, but, did you re-enforce or inspect that old stand to make it safe for use? 

How can you say this? Not the fault of the person that built the stand or it is nobodies fault? Yes it was if this person did not build this stand it would have not been there at all and he would have not climb up there! He may not have intended for this to happen. But he broke the Law. As far as in fore or inspect. It was not my intention to sit in the stands. I would have told him not too.  You are breaking the Law built tree stands on state land!!  It dose not mater if it a small one or a big one or if it as a roof or not or if you can put a car on it. You sill are breaking the Law!!

As far as put the stands up you are clammed state land as you own privet hunting spot. It not your land!! It is all of are. Not your land to put your permanent stands in! You can hunt on the land but you have to leave the land like it was!!  If I was a Co I would fine the person that sit or building them in permanent stands, a have them take them down!!! And clean it up!! On (State Lands) Yes I will tear permanent stand down. I do not care what you all think it is the right thing to do. You are breaking the Law built tree stands on state land!!   The people that build this stands are the one that want to justify what they are doing is ok. But it not they are breaking the law!!

Dakids, you are making the right chores to have her site with her mom. But in regards to the tree stand I would do just that come back at a later date after hunting and taking the stands down. And yes they may come back a build more. I would also call your CO for that spot you are hunting in October of next year and have him watch that area so he can fine them if they rebuild the stands. Then the CO will give them the leasing on the Law and you will not be fight with them. I would also like to said that is what they want you to do is to move. I myself would not move you have just as much right to hunt on that land as they do. If you all would fallow the Law. Good luck. And yes I would be willing to help you take the tree stand down!! You can PM me if you would like. Again good with this and good luck on the up come hunt.

“As these people that build permanent stands your are breaking the LAW!!! Go out a get the rules and read them!!

A friend of my CO said that the Law will be getting tougher on this in the up coming year! And I am trying to change the Law that if you are caught putting a Permanent stand on state land you will be fine and you have to clean it all up and you will lose your hunting right for three year and I do hope it pass in to law.

There is no need to build Permanent stands on state land it is not fair to the people it is garbage and most of all are wildlife home so you should repeat them. We as people have taken more land from are wildlife to build Homes, Store, Roads, and the list can go on why can we all leave are stat land alone!!! We do not have to build on them.

Hunter2, I think every body should just obey the rules and every thing would be alright.  The law says it all. If you put a stand up on public land AND DON'T TAKE IT DOWN WHEN YOU LEAVE, you should be prepared to lose it. Plane and simple. Thank you are right.

[Cody Gruchow]

so your saying that people building perm stands should get the same treatment as a poacher?

[beeker]

if the area your in prohibits them then you should be fined for the value of the timber you ruined and not to mention the littering fines. 

you can't pick and choose the regulations your going to follow. your either ethical and follow the rules or your not. you don't just pick the ones that are convienant for you.

[Cody Gruchow]

ya but giving someone a three year ban on the first offense for building a perm stand is absolutly  and how any sportsman can wish that upon another is  also......so your saying that if i build a perm stand im unethical? everyone breaks or bends a rule because of a "gray area". how about you get a 3 year ban if you forget to bring your license to the feild then.... or how about a 3 year ban for losing a deer......losing a deer is unethical also. a fine for the stand is alright with me and is fair. and as stated before if someone talks to a CO and they say its alright then it obviously isnt illegal in that area.....

[dakids]

While we're picking and choosing which rules we want to break Cody.  How about if a fellow sportsman shoots a buck that you were after all season while using your stand while he is trespassing on your land.   Perminant stands are 

[beeker]

losing a deer isn't done by choice you don't make  a decision to lose a deer. and if they did then yes that is unethical and poaching.  if you wound one and give your best effort to recover then there isn't much else that can be done.

exploiting a gray area is just poor decision making, you owe it to yourself to find the right answer then to go on word of mouth and assumptions.

and it's not BS to expect a fellow sportsman to follow the regs.

[beeker]

I emailed the dnr to see if they can give me specifics on this question.

[Cody Gruchow]

well how is everyone suppose to know that you gave it your best effort when its just your word? see what im saying. in no way am i trying to make anyone mad or call them out im just  stating my opinion. ive only hunted state land 1 year and i said that was enough.

dakids we disagree with a few things. but i have had stands stolen off private propery and trail cameras stolen also so if someone is out to steal a stand there going to do it reguardless. thats were perminant stands are nice, whos going to steal a perminant stand? even if you do build it on public property everyone has just as much right to that stand as you. id rather build a perm instead of having my portable stolen as i go in and have some lunch.

[thunderpout]

Everyone has a right to their own opinion... BUT, as of right now, it IS legal to use permanent stands in state forests, Ive asked a few co's up where we hunt, and theyve all said the same thing, until it becomes  Illegal, we'll keep using em......

[Outdoors Junkie]

Everyone has a right to their own opinion... BUT, as of right now, it IS legal to use permanent stands in state forests, Ive asked a few co's up where we hunt, and theyve all said the same thing, until it becomes  Illegal, we'll keep using em......

I agree 100% Thunderpout!  The permanent stands some of our hunting party use in the state Forests are in many cases safer than the portables that others in our party use.  Until it is illegal, we will continue to use them.

[dakids]

I just got off the phone with a person with the forestry dept. and this is what I learned
1. On fed. land, ie nat. forest absolutely no perm stands.  You are allowed to put ladder stands out one week before the season and they must be removed within one week after.
2. State land They are allowed. NO walls or Roofs and less than 16 feet to the floor.
3 County land ie tax forfeted   Depends on the county

He also said that the feds have it right and the state was looking into copying the feds.

[Cody Gruchow]

ok good work. that clears up everything

[deadeye]

dakids, being a lot of hunters spend so little time in the woods, I would just watch to see what this guy does.  Chances are you will have plenty alone time to the spot when he is at home.

[dakids]

your right deaedeye.  I will be up there for all but 3 days of the season.

[thunderpout]

Im glad we all are up to date on our legalities now...(?) Im fully aware that we are (and have been) legal in our deer hunting practices....you may not approve, but its legal, sorry.... the one Ive been pondering is getting slammed for hunting where our party has for years and years....   since when is tradition such a terrible evil thing?   Besides the actual hunting part, the tradition, the keeping deercamp going on thru generations deal and the whole deer camp thing in general is one of the best parts of the whole deal!  Do we keep other hunters out of the woods because we hunt out of permanent stands?  ABSOLUTLY NOT!  YOU CANT, ITS PUBLIC LAND!!!!!    Things would be no different if we hunted the area we do with portables!   We sleep in tents and campers... dont spend the week hitting bars... we stay right where we hunt... have since my buddies late father started it all, years and years ago... whats next... limiting bonfires to cooking and roasting marshmello's only, like in the cities?      But anyone who would rip on someone (especially another hunter... )for upholding a tradition like hunting the same area, with the same group of people for years has issues... maybe they dont have any traditions?  To lazy to put in time in finding a good spot to "call their own"... instead of seeing where others are hunting and infiltrating that area... maybe just maybe... one should look a bit to find a spot where others aren't!   Frankly, Im taken aback by being basically called a criminal here for hunting in legal stands, and even worse, hunting the same ground every year!   Now THAT is  !

[dakids]

Sorry thunderpout I don't think I slamed you for hunting in the same spot for years.  I was just mad because one of our neighbors has claimed the public land right behind our land and told us that we can't hunt there.  We have stayed away from all of his stands.  While talking the the forester he told me to just get the GPS coordinates and to call one of the federal guys and they will cut all of them down.  He even gave me the number. 

We bought land as our basecamp and would like to hunt somwhat close to it.  The ahole neighbor has good land right behind his own land but just chooses to hunt behind ours.

[Cody Gruchow]

dakids we have a similar problem across from our land. theres public land there but the guy claims it is his and harrasses all other hunters out there. for example it had snowed and he followed my cousins footprints on his 4 wheeler right to his stand and stayed there for 20 minutes reving his engine and driving around the stand.