Switiching sides on APR

[HD]

Kenny makes a good point, there are hunters like that in my area...
The,  "I want it NOW generation" (the participation trophy)

But, they don't seem to realize that the deer population is dropping in my area, not from the lack of APR, or QDM...but, may have something to do with the 10 collared wolves the DNR dropped off 2 years ago....  

Just a thought.........

[The General]

Tim,

You talk about that deer you shot last year.  You make a hunting video of the entire year of hard work you put into taking that "hit List" buck with the clearing of trees, tilling, placing trail cameras, food plots, watching your hard work pay off.  Even now you still talk about that story (and a great story at that) yet just one year ago you shot a no brow tine 6 pointer.  Very nice one I might add.  I'm sure with the way you talk about APR here you just didn't come to the conclusion that it's great after you shot that 6 pointer.  Look at the memories that 6 pointer made and how you felt, according to you on the video your words were "super happy" and "ecstatic".  Are you saying today you wish that never happened?  Because with your views of APR it never should have.  In the video you say "we are hunting him" even when he comes in you don't think twice about shooting it.  How come you weren't like "that doesn't meet the APR requirements"?  Could you not tell it was a 6 pointer? Then the excitement you had in tracking that thing through falling snow, lost blood, no tracks, etc.  I say this with all do respect because it is a great story, great buck, with I'm guessing lasting memories for you and others.  Why would you not want that same experience for someone else with another deer just like that?  I for one would wish it on every deer hunter.

[Mayfly]

That was a great hunt! I'd say all those things today as well.

And i'd probably do it all again. BUT I fully support APR. That deer is a diamond in the rough. He was one deer that I have seen that did not have brow tines that I would kill.

If it would of been an APR area then I would not have shot him. It does not change they way I think about APR. After reading and studying APR I am a firm believer in it for Minnesota! I truly believe we need a better way of managing our herd here in MN and I truly think that APR will do much more good than bad.


Here is a couple favorite pics from that day 

[deadeye]

This is one of the reasons some states use a three point on a side for the APR.  It avoids the issue of seeing or not seeing brow tines.

[beeker]

General... love it... great post. 

[The General]

This is one of the reasons some states use a three point on a side for the APR.  It avoids the issue of seeing or not seeing brow tines.

That story alone from start to finish even if it was a small buck is all the reason i need to not force apr on others even if i choose to practice it.  However to tell a bunch of people how great it is and then not do it myself  doesn't say to much in my book.

[Mayfly]

This is one of the reasons some states use a three point on a side for the APR.  It avoids the issue of seeing or not seeing brow tines.

That story alone from start to finish even if it was a small buck is all the reason i need to not force apr on others even if i choose to practice it.  However to tell a bunch of people how great it is and then not do it myself   doesn't say to much in my book.

Well General... I see you want to personally attack me because I shot a deer that would not qualify under APR regs back in 2010. I wasn't hunting in an APR zone and I wasn't promoting APR in 2010. I was happy to see that it had started in zone 3 and I had to pass deer on my red wing property that year because of APR. I was not complaining but rather supportive of the movement. If ANYTHING, this shows that I do not believe that APR is just a trophy reg. I feel a trophy is in the eye of the beholder. As far as APR, I believe in it as a great tool for management here in MN.

So anyways, I don't feel it.  

Back in 1994 when I started hunting I did not even know what APR was.. heck, I did not even know what QDMA was and was not even aware that it existed. Should you attack me for that reason as well?

Over the years of education and really taking a deep look I've concluded that APR is the way to go and I support it 100%.

 

[kenhuntin]

 Well old friend MNO The point that I read from the Generals post was not an attack at all. He was bringing to the surface the fact that such legislation takes away the enjoyment someone may feel for harvesting a world record 3X3.
 It will remove a myriad of opportunities for deer hunters.
 Because bicycles now have the same rights as cars on roads they did not pay for does that make it right?
The second amendment gives American citizens the right to keep and bear arms but it is illegal to enter posted establishments. It that right?
It Is illegal to drive without a seat belt but some feel safer without one while driving on a frozen lake to expediate their escape in case of breaking through. Is that law right?
  IT IS TIME NOT TO BIND HUNTERS WITH MORE SPECIAL INTEREST LAW BUT TRY AND KEEP THE  LITTLE FREEDOMS WE HAVE.

[The General]

Ken is right on the money.  My point was even if it happened back in 2010 you said you would do it again 6 posts back after you have already posted numerous posts about how great apr is.  so if you believe in apr like you say you do it shouldn't matter if you hunt in an apr zone or not you should stick to what you believe in no matter where you are.  I dont mean to sound like an attack but can you see where it sure sounds like your being a hypocrite?  If you would have said knowing what i know now about apr i would have never shot that buck i would have said nothing but you didnt in fact you said just the opposite.  As far as it being personal absolutely not anyone here who has been posting in favor of apr and it being a state wide regulation i would have made the same post towards them i dont care who they are.

[stevejedlenski]

i guess all we can do at this point is educate ourselves and as more info comes from zone 3 and maybe others we can make a decision and voice our oppinions to the DNR when and if they ask for them. i dont see them making APR a state wide regulation for a very long time if ever. but there may be some areas that will change, and like always we will adapt and whether it benefits us or not.

[deadeye]

There are countless examples of where laws and attitudes change over time.  If some one is against or for something and the law general feeling towards it changes, are they a hypocrite for changing the way the act?  I think not.  To quote some politician, "I was against it before I was for it".  We have practiced our form of QDM/APR for some time now.  Does that mean I would never shoot a small/young buck?  I might.  Does that make me a hypocrite?  Things are not always black and white.

[The General]

There are countless examples of where laws and attitudes change over time.  If some one is against or for something and the law general feeling towards it changes, are they a hypocrite for changing the way the act?  I think not.  To quote some politician, "I was against it before I was for it".  We have practiced our form of QDM/APR for some time now.  Does that mean I would never shoot a small/young buck?  I might.  Does that make me a hypocrite?  Things are not always black and white.

Deadeye if you are telling other people what they should not do and then do it yourself you are a hypocrite.  With that being said we have all been one at one time or another and yes it is pretty black and white.  I myself can remember the last time I was I had always given my buddies  about owning only Evinrude or Johnson.  I ended up buying a small 14' boat and yes it had a different brand of motor but the price was right.  My buddies ragged on me for that one however I didn't whine about it and deserved it.  I'm sure some day I'll own a Polaris Ranger and they will get me again (I've always been only Honda).

[Mayfly]

You can say whatever you want. Am I a hypocrite because I shot a spike 10 years ago too?? Because I did. My attitude and beliefs toward deer management have changed a lot since those days. I consider myself much smarter now! 

[Mayfly]

And as far as me "do it again", you aren't understanding what I meant. 

[deadeye]

General,
First of all, I'm "asking" not "telling others not to shoot small bucks.  I can only "tell" people who hunt my property what to shoot or not shoot.

Secondly, for the black/white issue, where would you put this situation?  Several years ago (while I was asking/telling people not to shoot small bucks, I shot a 1.5 year old basket 7 pointer.  I knew it was a 1.5 year old when I shot it.  I shot this deer because a neighbor had shot off it's hind leg at the knee and it was dangling by the hide.  I realize this can well be an argument for APR(not a legal deer) or against APR (with APR restrictions I would not have been able to finish off this deer).     

[mathews4ever]

First off deadeye, that is not a hunting situation that is a right or wrong situation. Letting that deer go at anytime of the year would me wrong. I would shoot that deer in June from my back door if I had a safe shot.

As for you MNO, I couldn't agree with you more about you getting smarter about you deer management. Getting big brother to force people to do your management for you is way smarter than doing it yourself.

[Mayfly]

You guys are funny. You act as if this is such a foreign deal. Every species we hunt and every fish we fish for is managed. There is limits ect... A reg put in place to do good is a reg that the majority will go for. We'll talk in a few years 

[The General]

General,
First of all, I'm "asking" not "telling others not to shoot small bucks.  I can only "tell" people who hunt my property what to shoot or not shoot.

Secondly, for the black/white issue, where would you put this situation?  Several years ago (while I was asking/telling people not to shoot small bucks, I shot a 1.5 year old basket 7 pointer.  I knew it was a 1.5 year old when I shot it.  I shot this deer because a neighbor had shot off it's hind leg at the knee and it was dangling by the hide.  I realize this can well be an argument for APR(not a legal deer) or against APR (with APR restrictions I would not have been able to finish off this deer).    

Doesn't the current regulations say 4 points on one side so if it had 7 points it must have had at least 4 on one side.  But for arguments sake lets say it was a 6 pointer.  It wouldn't matter to me if you were asking or telling it's pretty much the same thing.  You are stating your beliefs and I believe that if you're going to ask, tell, request, etc. others to want to follow apr that you should stick to it yourself in all situations.  You should have let the seven pointer walk if you believe in APR and let mother nature take it's course.  Now if you believe strongly that one should have taken the basket buck with the dangling leg then you should be against APR.   It's pretty black and white.

[The General]

You can say whatever you want. Am I a hypocrite because I shot a spike 10 years ago too?? Because I did. My attitude and beliefs toward deer management have changed a lot since those days. I consider myself much smarter now! 

Of course not.  Getting a little out there now aren't we? 

[The General]

And as far as me "do it again", you aren't understanding what I meant.  

Yet you then fail to explain so here are some questions then.

1. When you shot that nice 6 pointer did you believe in APR and tell others that it's a good way to manage the deer herd?  

2. If today that same deer came by you anywhere you are hunting would you shoot it again? (It sure sounded like you would in a previous post)

If you answer yes to any of these questions well...........

Disclaimer**(nothing personal against MNO) This also goes for anyone here if you believe APR is good for the herd and you would have shot that same 6 pointer MNO did.  I know I would have shot it but I'm against APR. I just let the little bucks go if I choose to and don't care what others decide to shoot legally.

[The General]

You guys are funny. You act as if this is such a foreign deal. Every species we hunt and every fish we fish for is managed. There is limits ect... A reg put in place to do good is a reg that the majority will go for. We'll talk in a few years 

Some of us just  don't want more of our freedoms taken away. 

[The General]

Matthews I do think MNO does a pretty good job of managing the land he hunts, but it's his choice.

[Mayfly]

And as far as me "do it again", you aren't understanding what I meant.  

Yet you then fail to explain so here are some questions then.

1. When you shot that nice 6 pointer did you believe in APR and tell others that it's a good way to manage the deer herd?  

2. If today that same deer came by you anywhere you are hunting would you shoot it again? (It sure sounded like you would in a previous post)

If you answer yes to any of these questions well...........

Disclaimer**(nothing personal against MNO) This also goes for anyone here if you believe APR is good for the herd and you would have shot that same 6 pointer MNO did.  I know I would have shot it but I'm against APR. I just let the little bucks go if I choose to and don't care what others decide to shoot legally.

1. I was indifferent on the subject. I knew we needed a way to protect yearling bucks but was not sure the best route to achieve this. I was happy to see that zone 3 voted apr in. That year I was hunting in zone 3 as well and passed deer due to the law. I was happy to see it and did not complain. As far as if it would work and if I wanted to see it statewide, I was not educated enough to make that decision with a good backing other than for yearling buck protection. Now that I've done my homework I'm all in!

2. Would I shoot that deer now? No way. He would walk and I would hope that he would grow brow times the next year. He'd be a dandy. There is a gene line in that area with very similar antlers. I have two other deer that didn't get their brow tones until about 3.5 years old. I'm guessing that guy was 2.5.

But no, today he would gladly get the pass 

[The General]

Thanks for the clarification.  Sorry for thinking of you as hypocrite.  Would have been nice if earlier you would have just said no I wouldn't have shot it today.  I hope you can see how one could have taken your previous statement as you would have.  Now on the other hand if you're not wearing your seat belt at all times while driving yet still writing other people tickets for them      Have a good one!

[deadeye]

Ok, good, now that MNO is cleared of being a hypocrite, it's time to work on me.  I did some checking and the wounded buck I shot was back in 2007 and it was a 5 point not 7 as I indicated. Ok, I'm so used to adding pounds to fish and points to deer I just couldn't help myself.
Anyway, even though I support APR and ask others to do the same, I still would shoot any wounded buck regardless of how small.  Yes, I will blow my buck tag on a wounded spike buck.  APR is one method but not the only one.  I would prefer to have people shoot mature bucks and not worry too much about points.  However, I understand that is subjective and not as black and white as counting points.  With that said, I guess I'm a hypocrite by the Generals definition.  I don't know of any way around it. 

[The General]

Ok, good, now that MNO is cleared of being a hypocrite, it's time to work on me.  I did some checking and the wounded buck I shot was back in 2007 and it was a 5 point not 7 as I indicated. Ok, I'm so used to adding pounds to fish and points to deer I just couldn't help myself.
Anyway, even though I support APR and ask others to do the same, I still would shoot any wounded buck regardless of how small.  Yes, I will blow my buck tag on a wounded spike buck.  APR is one method but not the only one.  I would prefer to have people shoot mature bucks and not worry too much about points.  However, I understand that is subjective and not as black and white as counting points.  With that said, I guess I'm a hypocrite by the Generals definition.  I don't know of any way around it.  

Why not just say "I'm against APR as it's currently implemented on the books".  However if they made certain stipulations such as shooting wounded deer, or shooting cull bucks, or what ever your stipulations are then I would be for it.  But if you're for it as it's currently written and do not practice it in all situations already and are telling people you wish it were implemented through out the state, and they should practice APR, well we all know your a great guy deadeye, but in this one instance are a h..........  

P.S. you can also change your yes vote to a no vote.   

[HD]

    Last time I brought this up, I got the brunt of it..... now, it's someone else's turn. 

[The General]

    Last time I brought this up, I got the brunt of it..... now, it's someone else's turn. 

When was this Sally?  I would have had your back 

[HD]

It was either last year, or the year before....in a QDM thread....


 http://mnoutdoorsman.com/forums/index.php?topic=18601.0

[Bear Creek Bucks]

APR Pros and Cons

Pros...Better for the deer herd.

Cons...I don't get to shoot whatever I want, me, me, me.