Switiching sides on APR

[deadeye]

I don't know if I can specifically call it QDM but we practice some form of it.  We simple shoot does and big bucks.  The rest we just watch and admire.  To be clear, youngsters, old farts and newbes can shoot whatever they want.  After a while, they usually decide themselves to shoot only does or big bucks.  Now the question is, what is a big buck?  

[Cody Gruchow]

we do 8 points or 3.5+ YO. me personally i strive to shoot one bigger then my previous one, expect thats becoming increasingly hard. just because we choose to do that dont mean that i think the entire state should do that. it should be a choice not a law...

[kenhuntin]

Alot of activity here and I think the conversation is great!
  There is more I wish to add because It intrigues me alot. If the majority of hunters wish to practice APR that is wonderful. There will be larger antlered deer around that is a fact. The heck with legislating it. Analogy since it seems to be the norm = does the war on drugs stop people from smoking dope? I am all for EDUCATION NOT LEGISLATION
 The topography of the state differs so greatly for example from flat as a pancake farm land with small woodlots for the deer to hide to rocky cliffs to the end morraine of the glaciers that is extremely wooded and up and down in elevation offering never more than a 50 yard shot. The flat farmland with little hiding space is where I see an issue on people getting upset because of overharvest of a particular animal. By the way hunting seasons are put in place only to remove the excess from an ecosystem. Zone 1 has a longer season because it is way harder to hunt sucessfully. It also gives all deer age ranges a better chance for making it through until next year or wolf depredation ,car fatality etc.  If APR is instituted statewide The season in zone 1 will probably need to be extended.

[kenhuntin]

And I have to throw the yellow penalty flag on any statement claiming that all trophy hunters also use the meat. That is so far from the truth that it should be deleted.

[Mayfly]

If APR is instituted statewide The season in zone 1 will probably need to be extended.

What you are failing to realize is that APR's will not effect deer harvest. The first year or two? Yes, but then after that it will even out and all those yearlings that were passed for two years will now be legal. Look at Zone 3 this year. Buck harvest in Zone 3 is up 33% this year. Yes, 33% up! Thats great. The best part about it is that the yearling bucks are still protected so that means the harvest is up and the bucks are that much better creating a huge buzz in Zone 3! I don't know if you know anyone that hunts down there but talking to hunters down there is exciting. These people are super pumped, that is why after the survey is done it is estimated that we'll probably see about 80% support for APR's. When the survey was initially done before the trial it was just over 50% for some type of buck management to be implemented. They were not sold on APR but that led the pack.

The DNR is hearing the support as well! People are reaching out to the DNR. I think that it will pass this spring and continue in Zone 3. That is something that those of you on here that are against it will not be able to control. Also, what is happening is that the DNR is also now starting to hear from hunters in different zones. They want APR. I'm sorry for those of you here that do not support it but this is the future. Its going to happen and just like in other areas, about 75% of people that do not initially support it will support it after they see the changes. That is something to think about.

Its a generational change here. Majority of hunter 18 - 35 years old want this and more and more hunters above 35 are catching on.

look at muskie fishing 20 years ago and look at it today. Just one example of how management changes over time.

Happy hunting! 

[kenhuntin]

MNO I can see how that theory works age and natural mortality also must be figured into the picture.
 Now back to the legislation. The conservation officers and DNR staff already have enough to do. as well as the legal system. The state of Minnesota has no money to fund the devastated infrastructure here which they are all of a sudden are working on trying to fund because they spent all the income on toys. They spent all the money on stadiums and trains and bike paths. You are now paying an extra 14 cents per every gallon of gas sold in the state so a train can service the University of Minnesota. Major tax increases are coming to pay for more laws and bills that have already passed. We have unnecessary Color paged magazines now for hunting and fishing regulations. Do you people really visualize the cost to implement this? It can be accomplished easier by word of mouth and just a page in the synopsis showing stats and asking for people to practice APR voluntarily.

[The General]

I'm agreeing with Ken and Cody.  I'm an avid deer hunter and let the little ones go by choice.  In the area I hunt a person can get one license per year so they can take one deer out of the herd.  To me it would matter more on the sex of the deer specific to an area on whether a person is helping or hurting the herd. What does it matter if I take the biggest buck in the forest or a basket rack?  The herd is minus one deer.  

I find it funny that when government regulations are put into place where people thinks it helps them they are all for it.  Would this new regulation help me......probably, but I'm still against it. 

[Cody Gruchow]

all though APR does restrict the harvest of 1.5yo mostly, but what about some other deer that just dont have the genetics to even get to the 4 points on one side rule...for example..my  very first buck was a small basket racked 6 pointer that was 210lbs dressed and aged to be 5.5 years old. opposed to someone shooting a 3.5yo 8 pointer that has excellent gentics that will no longer be able to spread. so really to me its the best bucks that you want to breed as being whacked according to the APR and the bad genetics can be spread be even though he fully mature, doesnt meet the APR requirements.... sorry about the ramble 

[Mayfly]

So much good pres out there!! It seems like APR gets the thumbs up about every few days in some publication. This is fun! 

http://www.huntingclub.com/digitalissues/november2012nah/index.html

Page 42

[wildlifeminnesota]

I am no sure this is more like "Trophy" hunters, Being that said It funny that some say deer are like fish, If so why not let 8 point on up walk  That what we do when in come to walleye we let 18" to 26" go back why because they have more eggs  would that  be the same in the deer herd? They can have a better herd  what dose ARP do for fawn?  one more thing I have never heard some one say I shoot a 240 LB or 140 LB no they always said I shot a 10 pointer or bigger, other thing that I fine funny The deer contest dose not go by weight it go by point on the rack,       

[HD]

It really does not matter to me, APR or not. I really don't think it will effect my hunting. (Maybe my kids)


With that being said...I have heard that not everybody in zone 3 is happy with the new rules. Even though the APR guys would like you to believe otherwise.

And, the reason APR is getting a foothold is because they have the funds and the backing.

Just try'in to keep the conversation going.....  

[Mayfly]

The comparison to fish is merely suggesting that over the years the mentality of management has changed! I'm not saying fish are the same as deer.

[Cody Gruchow]

MNO i agree with everything you say about APR but i dont agree that it needs to be installed as a law. If people want to pratice it. then let them. like wildlife said, this protects young antlered bucks, but its open season on fawns then.

[wildlifeminnesota]

The comparison to fish is merely suggesting that over the years the mentality of management has changed! I'm not saying fish are the same as deer.

I would hope not as one has 4 legs and other has none, To look at one for management is not the same as we put back the bigger one both male and female, why not let 2.5 year old and up both doe and buck walk this would give a better herd  If what you say this is not about "Trophy" hunters, 

Now about the meat is the smaller one have better meat? that the same in fishing The bigger one are tufter ,  So why not let the bigger one walk? If this is not about "Trophy" hunters, 

[DDSBYDAY]

   You want bigger trophy deer than quit shooting trophies.  Quit hunting during the rut when it will be the only time you see one.   Pass a law you can't shoot anything over 4 points for 5 years and you will start seeing more trophies.  How can you expect to see bigger and better quality deer when we prize the ones that carry the genes we want passed on.  I have taken a huge spike buck.  His spikes  were about 4 inches long.  Big deer, no antlers.  Keep killing the big daddies and you alter the gene pool for the worse.  I have no dog in this fight.  I just think the reasoning is backwards from a logical point of view. 

[FireRanger]

   You want bigger trophy deer than quit shooting trophies.  Quit hunting during the rut when it will be the only time you see one.   Pass a law you can't shoot anything over 4 points for 5 years and you will start seeing more trophies.  How can you expect to see bigger and better quality deer when we prize the ones that carry the genes we want passed on.  I have taken a huge spike buck.  His spikes  were about 4 inches long.  Big deer, no antlers.  Keep killing the big daddies and you alter the gene pool for the worse.  I have no dog in this fight.  I just think the reasoning is backwards from a logical point of view. 

X2

Everyone wants to remove the best genes outta the pool. One of my biggest deer I've ever shot was a spike in WI and he had 8 inch spikes 3.5 years old. I'm not a trophy hunter but you cannot deny simple logic.

[mathews4ever]

   You want bigger trophy deer than quit shooting trophies.  Quit hunting during the rut when it will be the only time you see one.   Pass a law you can't shoot anything over 4 points for 5 years and you will start seeing more trophies.  How can you expect to see bigger and better quality deer when we prize the ones that carry the genes we want passed on.  I have taken a huge spike buck.  His spikes  were about 4 inches long.  Big deer, no antlers.  Keep killing the big daddies and you alter the gene pool for the worse.  I have no dog in this fight.  I just think the reasoning is backwards from a logical point of view. 

X2

Everyone wants to remove the best genes outta the pool. One of my biggest deer I've ever shot was a spike in WI and he had 8 inch spikes 3.5 years old. I'm not a trophy hunter but you cannot deny simple logic.

I'm with these guys. If we HAVE to have any law put in place on this subject some version of what was said above would be great.

Just remember guys that it is about herd health not wall ornaments. Even naturalistmn said that, and this plan would benefit the deer herd far more than the trophy hunter APR regs in place.

[wildlifeminnesota]

  You want bigger trophy deer than quit shooting trophies.  Quit hunting during the rut when it will be the only time you see one.   Pass a law you can't shoot anything over 4 points for 5 years and you will start seeing more trophies.  How can you expect to see bigger and better quality deer when we prize the ones that carry the genes we want passed on.  I have taken a huge spike buck.  His spikes  were about 4 inches long.  Big deer, no antlers.  Keep killing the big daddies and you alter the gene pool for the worse.  I have no dog in this fight.  I just think the reasoning is backwards from a logical point of view.  

Thanks DDS you see my point,  

I think it more about "Trophy" hunters But it said it not!! If not then let the "Trophy" walk,

[stevejedlenski]

you guys are hitting the nail on the head. how many people here say they practice they let the little guys walk "QDM"? now how many of you would actually sign up your land with the REAL QDM? id bet 1/1000 or less. thats because even though you may like the idea you dont want to get fined for shooting a small deer or having that set form of rules. we have rules at camp, and they change every year. some years its nothing smaller than an 8. others its no does etc etc. we base ours on what we see happening on the land, not what the entire state sees or QDM thinks. no one ever gets upset if we take a small deer, they are still congratulated and rack goes on the wall. and yes weve had some oops i thought he was bigger and some i thought he was a nice 10 but ended up being a 160". sometimes deer only give you that split second to decide to shoot and i know i probly passed some really big deer because i was trying to size him up and never got the chance before he was gone. had i just shot when i knew it was a decent buck i may have a couple more 140" deer.

PLEASE WITH THE WAY THINGS ARE ALREADY GOING NO MORE REGS!!! JUST LET IT BE AND SPREAD IT WITH YOUR MOUTH AND PICTURES... EVENTUALLY IT WILL WORK TO SOME EXTENT. it has for us even though a few neighbors blast everything they have been getting nice bucks too. thats what leads to letting smaller ones go.

[deadeye]

I really thought the talking, showing deer and pictures was making some progress with the neighbors.  That is until this year when it backfired.  They brought in more hunters to line the boarders because they felt there were many young bucks to be had because we don't shoot them.  Go figure.

[Mayfly]

Well... It seems that there is a lot of fire back at APR's here on this site. The only thinkg I can do is present you with information and let you decide for yourself. I would bet A LOT that AT LEAST 50% of you who oppose APR's would support it after a 3 - 5 year trial. You would see that hunting would improve and you would not want to take a step back into the dark ages of deer hunting. Fortunate for me and others who support APR's we are becoming the majority. You will see that when the surveys come in that are out now. All Zone 3 hunters are being surveyed to see if they support APR's among some other topics. Buck management was supported by over 50% of people before the APR trial began and from word of mouth at this point it is through the roof. Once we get over that hurdle then its time to spread through-out the state. Watch the ooutdoor publications. There is a lot of good press right now that is fueling this fire. I saw someone above that stated that this support was fueled by money and powerful influence. This could not be any further from the truth. APR's started as somewhat of a grass roots movement. It was the voice of the people that really got the jump on this. The DNR would not push it if the majority did not want to see it. Thats the only support coming in. We do have minority groups here in MN, specifcally the MDHA, who oppose this. If anyone has power in the legislative session it would be them but with the overwhelming public support they are not getting their way that easy anymore. My suggestion to them, if you want to save your organization, get on board. Tradition is changing here in MN.

Anyways, I will once again supply you with some more information on the subject:

http://www.mndeeralliance.com/files/

I really hope you take the time to read, OPEN your mind, and educate yourself. Your blanket statements do not stand up to t he truth.

[FireRanger]

Antler point restrictions

Creating deer harvest seasons with antler point restrictions is popular amongst hunters who think it will help increase the number of mature bucks and buck:doe ratios in deer populations. But research in many western states shows that antler point restrictions do not produce more deer or larger-antlered deer.

Colorado implemented antler point restrictions statewide for six years, and in a number of game units for seven years. The result was a shift of hunting from pressure on all age classes of bucks (primarily yearlings) to bucks two years and older, and an increase in illegal or accidental harvest of yearling bucks. The number of mature bucks did not increase over time.

Idaho and Montana implemented two points or less seasons to reduce hunting pressure on older bucks and improve buck:doe ratios at the end of hunting seasons. Over the long term, two point seasons did not improve buck:doe ratios at the end of the hunting seasons.

Wyoming’s experience with four point or better seasons resulted in fewer hunters and a reduction in total harvest, fewer mature bucks, and a significant number of deer harvested with fewer than four points.

Utah abandoned efforts to implement antler point restrictions after five years when officials documented illegal harvest, reductions in overall harvest and fewer mature bucks.

Attempts to increase the number of mature bucks and buck:doe ratios using four-point seasons in Montana reduced buck harvest by 28 percent, increased illegal harvest of bucks with 3x3 points or less by about 40 percent, and increased harvest of bucks having more than 3x4 points.

Washington tried antler point restrictions in a few of their hunting units and experienced a smaller harvest of mule deer bucks, a switch in harvest from mule deer to white-tailed deer, and no increase in the number of mature bucks. They did experience an increase in buck:doe ratios because of the lower buck harvest and improved recruitment of fawns.

Oregon abandoned antler point restrictions in a few popular hunting areas when the number of older bucks and buck:doe ratios decreased after 12 years.

Most western states have concluded that changes in buck:doe ratios and increases in the number of mature bucks can only be accomplished through reductions in harvest of bucks.

[Mayfly]

Just read over this thread again...

I guess what I don't understand is what is wrong with protecting a year class of bucks.

Genes? I have toured two deer farms in the past two years. They did not prize their bucks, they had their prize does. So that giant they had in the pen, yeah.. he is sold off. The doe that gave birth to that prize buck, she is treated like gold.

And, stop saying this is solely about trophies. Protection of yearling bucks does not turn this into a trophy hunt! Look at that stats of states that have implemented APR's for many years. The increase of bucks harvested in the 3.5 + age barely increases. SO if you want trophies!! APR does not do that. It maybe promotes more management but alone, APR's do not create a large trophy class of bucks. The opposition keeps beating that one to death and its just not true!

[Mayfly]

Antler point restrictions

Creating deer harvest seasons with antler point restrictions is popular amongst hunters who think it will help increase the number of mature bucks and buck:doe ratios in deer populations. But research in many western states shows that antler point restrictions do not produce more deer or larger-antlered deer.

Colorado implemented antler point restrictions statewide for six years, and in a number of game units for seven years. The result was a shift of hunting from pressure on all age classes of bucks (primarily yearlings) to bucks two years and older, and an increase in illegal or accidental harvest of yearling bucks. The number of mature bucks did not increase over time.

Idaho and Montana implemented two points or less seasons to reduce hunting pressure on older bucks and improve buck:doe ratios at the end of hunting seasons. Over the long term, two point seasons did not improve buck:doe ratios at the end of the hunting seasons.

Wyoming’s experience with four point or better seasons resulted in fewer hunters and a reduction in total harvest, fewer mature bucks, and a significant number of deer harvested with fewer than four points.

Utah abandoned efforts to implement antler point restrictions after five years when officials documented illegal harvest, reductions in overall harvest and fewer mature bucks.

Attempts to increase the number of mature bucks and buck:doe ratios using four-point seasons in Montana reduced buck harvest by 28 percent, increased illegal harvest of bucks with 3x3 points or less by about 40 percent, and increased harvest of bucks having more than 3x4 points.

Washington tried antler point restrictions in a few of their hunting units and experienced a smaller harvest of mule deer bucks, a switch in harvest from mule deer to white-tailed deer, and no increase in the number of mature bucks. They did experience an increase in buck:doe ratios because of the lower buck harvest and improved recruitment of fawns.

Oregon abandoned antler point restrictions in a few popular hunting areas when the number of older bucks and buck:doe ratios decreased after 12 years.

Most western states have concluded that changes in buck:doe ratios and increases in the number of mature bucks can only be accomplished through reductions in harvest of bucks.

THANK YOU for posting that fireranger!!! That is what I have been trying to say! APR does not create trophies!! It is not a trophy regulation. Thank you.

Additionally, there is some negative in that post but look at the 22 other states that currently have APR implemented and are successful! :-)

Also, It has not had much success in western states but then again those statements are one side of the story.

[The General]

I live in Zone 277 and they gave out almost nothing for Doe permits.  I'm guessing the Buck to Doe ratio here is already just fine for the few deer we have.  Anyone have any material show the ratio through out the state?  In those areas where you can buy multiple tags why not just say you have to shoot a doe before you can shoot a buck?

[The General]

"After examining the effect of antler restrictions for 14 years, biologists in Mississippi found that selective harvest of bucks with at least four points on one side resulted in a reduction in bucks with larger antlers in subsequent years. In other words, the best bucks were being taken out of the population early because they grew legal antlers at younger ages than lower-quality bucks of the same age. Called “high-grading,” it ultimately resulted in an overall decline in antler size of 3 1/2-year old and older bucks. It’s happening mostly on public property where hunting pressure is high and hunters are still less willing to let a legal deer pass.

Private-land hunters, however, have more freedom to be selective and are more willing to pass up legal bucks that barely meet the minimum requirements as they wait for a mature, heavy-antlered buck. So after 14 years of point restrictions, the MDFWP has scrapped the four-point rule and instead adopted a measurement scale. Now, hunters have to judge either a buck’s antler spread or main beam length. In two management zones, which cover about threequarters of the state, bucks must have at least a 10-inch inside spread or a main beam length of at least 13 inches.

In one zone, which has more fertile soil and a greater potential to produce larger bucks, hunters are restricted to bucks with at least a 12-inch inside spread or a main beam length of at least 15 inches. Dacus says the new rules will protect nearly 100 percent of the state’s yearling bucks and allow mature bucks to breed more does, which is more natural and better for the herd overall."

It always starts out as a good idea and then it's not working so the Government is going to step in and fix it.  How is a guy to judge the measurement of a running buck?  Not everyone in the state sits in a tree stand waiting.

[HD]

Like I stated before, I'm neither for or against APR

And to clarify the statement of "support was fueled by money and powerful influence"
is that QDM, APR and other media are the influence (powerful, maybe) Do they have money? (more than average Joe deer hunter)

Are they organized?

Do they have influence to the DNR?

Is there a group of organized average Joe deer hunters?

Like I said.....I'm just keeping the conversation going.... 

[deadeye]

HD, Why yes there is a group of regular Joe deer hunters.

Hunting sports face constant challenges that impair the quality, and at times the very existence of the sports in general. A strong and unified sportsmen's and sportswomen's voice is imperative to counter the obstacles and raise awareness of the benefits of hunting.  Minnesota Deer Hunters Association is such a voice. MDHA is a grassroots, democratic organization of members.  As such, elected chapter delegates and board members meet annually to discuss and vote on resolutions, position statements and pertinent issues at MDHA's Corporate Board Meeting.  They vote based upon the update information and upon feedback from chapter members.

We strive to represent you and your hunting interests at the state legislature as well as to the state's congressional delegation. MDHA works closely with state legislators and agencies to ensure the future of deer hunting. We take positions on specific legislation and encourage passage of laws that benefit deer and deer hunting.

[HD]

So does MDHA support APR?

[deadeye]

HD, I thought you would ask.  Here is MDHA's posititon.

Quality Deer Management (QDM) Position
QDM is a deer management philosophy that was developed decades ago. It is based upon the foundation that hunters, by their joint actions, can effectively influence the deer population, its age structure, doe:buck ratio and the number of larger or mature (“quality”) bucks. Minnesota Deer Hunters Association does not oppose the practice of QDM nor QDM philosophy. However, Minnesota is a very diverse state with very different challenges to deer survival and deer management within each of
Minnesota’s various biological biomes. As a result of these challenges and the very different perspectives of hunters utilizing each area, MDHA primarily supports implementation of QDM on a voluntary basis by individuals. Further, without strong and convincing scientifically based biological concerns for the well being of the deer herd, MDHA does not readily support the mandatory implementation of QDM practices (eg. Earn-a-buck, APRs, etc) without documentation of clear public support in the significant majority. That said, MDHA actively supports, endorses and joins in encouraging individuals to consider and become active in the local utilization of quality deer management practices. Whether your goals are more deer, bigger deer, more bucks or bigger bucks, individual efforts can make a difference, especially when thousands of individuals join in. Simply put, MDHA encourages individual hunters and deer hunting camps to engage in activity that they think will enhance their hunting experience and make their corner of our state a better place for wildlife and hunters for generations to come.